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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WWYD? Stereotyped gifts for my young daughter

99 replies

Thegeesearegettingfat2020 · 02/12/2020 12:40

Posting here because I don't want a load of replies about girls having different brains, being biologically programmed to love pink, etc...!

A female very close to me, I will call her Jane, has DD8 while I have DD4. We always exchange birthday and Christmas presents for our children (and always will - this is non-negotiable).

Jane has a very successful career and is a feminist in the sense that she does not believe a woman's place is in the home etc and supports equal rights for women in theory, but she is very adherent to sex stereotypes when it comes to children. I am, as she knows (or really ought to by now!), a campaigning feminist and support eg the work of Let Toys be Toys. I hate it when adults foist stereotypes on children.

I am also realistic that sadly growing up in this world children absorb the expectations around them and like to fit in. Accordingly, whereas I will never push my daughter to like stereotypically "girly" things, I am conscious that in all likelihood she will grow to like princesses and pink and dolls and sparkles once she starts school. I will always be guided by her likes and dislikes - if she truly wants a sparkly princess doll for her birthday I will get her one. However I will not encourage her being fed the message that she should want one because she is a girl.

Currently DD4 is still in that space where she has no idea what she is "supposed" to like. Her particular interests are books, animals, Lego, imaginative role play and puzzles.

For every occasion without fail, Jane sends a generous present that is a collection of the pinkest, most stereotypically "girly" things she can find. There will nearly always be a doll dressed in pink that doesn't do anything more than the doll dressed in pink she sent last time. DD4 will play briefly with the new toys for novelty value then revert to her preferred toys.

I worry about the message that the gifts received are sending DD4. I don't want to give the details in case it is outing but the last gift received was so hideously sexist (and a giant pink plastic monstrosity) that DH and I both agreed it should not be given to DD4 at all. We managed to bring it back and exchange it for a pile of books which she loved. However this is rarely possible and I worry that as DD4 gets older she is more likely to be in direct contact with Jane who will ask her whether she liked specific presents (Jane lives on a different continent and visits rarely).

Do you think there is any way to approach this without offending Jane, who is a lovely person? Subtle hints about DD4's preferred toys don't seem to work (eg "She really loves books" = best case scenario, the next present will be another doll plus a book called "How to Be a Princess (extra sparkles edition)"). I suppose as a matter of politeness I do say to Jane that DD4 loved her gifts so perhaps she thinks this is a sign she is on the right track... but anything else would feel rude!

Jane never asks what DD4 might like before buying and seems to think that doing so is bad etiquette. In contrast, I always ask what her DD8's interests are. She has always responded that DD8 is into pink, sparkles, dolls, princesses or other "girly" stuff. DD8 was always guided that way from birth - clothes saying "Little Princess" etc. I always buy in accordance with what I'm told she likes. However I think Jane takes from this that I am on board with the idea that this is the sort of stuff all female children like or should like. It adds the complication that if I told Jane straight out and in clear terms what my thoughts are on society's princessification of little girls, she would likely interpret it as a criticism of her own parenting.

I know it seems so ungrateful but I would genuinely rather Jane sent my daughter a second-hand classic book costing £1 than a giant pink plastic role play beauty salon... is there a way to navigate this sensitively? Help!

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 20:29

As a parent I should be building a trusting relationship so that my DC can tell me what they like and if that's pink sparkles so be it. But I will not randomly bring or allow that stuff into my house. If and when my DC would like to have it, they can ask

Do they have to ask for all toys they want before you allow them? Are there toys which are "randomly allowed in your house"?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/12/2020 21:13

@Passmeabottlemrjones

If anything it sounds like you're potentially sending your daughter the message that things traditionally associated with girls/women are lower value. Like when people say they don't want to conform to enforce gender stereotypes on their child but all that actually means is they don't dress them in pink, because pink is bad and boy colours are good.

Yes this.

A range of toys is best I think Smile

This. Plus, you're making them into forbidden fruit, so all the more attractive. The toy your parents won't let you have is the one that becomes an obsession.

Much better to let her have Jane's presents and get bored of them.

minipie · 03/12/2020 22:58

DidoLamenting

Nothing’s wrong with them per se. DD enjoyed them. My point was simply that if the OP is bothered by Jane’s gift, there’s going to be a lot more of that to come.

DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 23:05

@minipie

DidoLamenting

Nothing’s wrong with them per se. DD enjoyed them. My point was simply that if the OP is bothered by Jane’s gift, there’s going to be a lot more of that to come.

A lot more of what? There is nothing wrong with those items. Why should the OP have any legitimate reason to be bothered by them?
minipie · 03/12/2020 23:12

Dido I can’t speak for the OP but I am personally bothered by the gender stereotyping of toys by manufacturers, the division of toys into “girls toys” and “boys toys” by retailers, and the fact that my girls were only ever given a few types of toy, based simply on them being female.

If that doesn’t bother you, you may be in the wrong forum.

DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 23:14

I think you should examine why you think craft and beading sets and colouring books should be sneered at because they are "girls" toys.

DidoLamenting · 03/12/2020 23:18

Oh and btw minipie when it was my husband's turn to buy gifts colouring books were one of his default choices for girls and boys. I suppose not being a feminist he doesn't feel the need to denigrate things as being unacceptably girly.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/12/2020 23:27

@DidoLamenting

I think you should examine why you think craft and beading sets and colouring books should be sneered at because they are "girls" toys.
She's not 'sneering' at them. She's commenting on the vast preponderance of certain items given to girls just because they're girls . Beading and craft and colouring and the odd Disney doll are fine if they're a moderate part of a mix.
NoSquirrels · 03/12/2020 23:44

@DidoLamenting

I think you should examine why you think craft and beading sets and colouring books should be sneered at because they are "girls" toys.
I think it’s probably because you don’t just get non-gendered beading, colouring and craft kits at a class party when you’re 5. If you’re a girl you get pink ‘friendship bracelet’ bead kits, princess/fairy/unicorn colouring books, and pink, girly craft kits.

If you’re a boy at a class party when you’re 5, you get superhero/dinosaur colouring books, no bead kits whatsoever because ... no toy manufacturer makes a good-looking non-gendered kit that doesn’t seem a bit ‘worthy’ for a kid you don’t know well, and craft kits might be slime/science based but at 5 people will steer clear...

Preschool all ages love Play-doh etc and older kids develop their own tastes but at whole class party ages 5-8 ish there’s a huge gender toy thing happening.

Wandawomble · 04/12/2020 01:13

I wasn’t allowed any pink things when I was a kid.
Pink is my favourite colour.
Give your kid the stuff to play with, charity shop the stuff she doesn’t play with after six months and don’t think about it more than you need to.

MoonriseKingdom · 04/12/2020 07:02

Is Jane your sister? Wink

I have a friend who we exchange children’s presents. As the children are getting older (mine are now 4 and 6) we tend to chat in advance about what they are into/ would like. Could you start a conversation along the lines, I haven’t seen you for ages, what is miniJane into now, anything she would like. And by the way my DD just loves ... she’d be over the moon if you got her ...

I am guessing from the amount of angst that this is family. For perspective, my MIL was in lots of ways very different to me and would sometimes buy toys/ clothes not to my taste at all. But I just accepted that it was maybe good for my children to be exposed to more of the world than just what I like. And I am really glad I made that decision because she died earlier this year and goodness do I miss her.

randomsabreuse · 04/12/2020 08:19

I will definitely put as much effort getting my DS into sewing/knotting crafts as I have/will my DD. Good for finger dexterity! My medic teaching friends have been heard bemoaning students' lack of general thread skills when teaching surgical techniques. Although gaming skills cross into robotic/laparoscopic surgery skills!

Lego is obviously fantastic for finger strength and dexterity too - DD5 has very neat handwriting having been doing Lego since 3. She has yet to develop the patience for plaiting, will have another go at stitching over Christmas. DS2 will also be taught to sew once he is sensible and dextrous enough...

Thegeesearegettingfat2020 · 04/12/2020 12:04

@minipie I don't actually know if Jane would even call herself a feminist and she would definitely be a lot less interested in feminism than I am. I think she would be highly offended if I started openly discussing the "little princess" attitude to little girls because she would take it as a criticism not just of everything she has ever bought my daughter but also of her own parenting. Also I do really think it's her own business how she raises her own daughter but by the same token I suppose it feels like she is imposing her own ideals on mine!

I am very conscious that this will get much worse when it comes to school, class parties etc - I've adverted to that in my OP - but I don't expect Jane to start or accelerate the princessification process!

I started this thread because I wondered what I should do:

  1. Suck it up or
  2. Try to guide Jane away from this sort of stuff gently (and if so, given she has so far proved impervious to hints about my daughter's actual interests, how) or
  3. Go nuclear by explaining to Jane my thoughts on society's assumption that there are girls' toys and boys' toys, that girls' toys must be pink etc etc - this would be nuclear because it would be received as a clear criticism of her parenting and her gifts. Nobody has suggested I do that and I don't think I should either.

It seems the majority consensus is suck it up...it will continue to bother me the way it bothers me when eg people refer to me by my husband's name. I will probably try further subtle hints such as the suggestion I got earlier about suggesting that her interests have "changed". But I do struggle with wording that in a way that would have the desired result given that it's not just that Jane is buying one type of toy - she is buying all toys through the lens of "gifts for girls".

@AnotherEmma @KnitsAndGiggles I acknowledge that saying DD4 loves the gifts is muddying the waters... the trouble is Jane knows me so well that if I say "Thanks so much for your very kind and generous gifts" (ie polite but no reference to DD4 liking them), she will definitely take from that that DD4 doesn't like the gifts... which is fine if that's the desired end, but the majority here seems to think I shouldn't be letting Jane know that DD does not like them? As in, not saying that DD4 loves the gift is not neutral, it is a positive action.

OP posts:
AnotherEmma · 04/12/2020 12:16

Why on earth would you have to lie and say she loves them. Just thank her for the gifts. If she concludes that your DD doesn't love them, all the better. Perhaps she'll put more thought into them next time. Perhaps not.

testing987654321 · 04/12/2020 12:16

I would stop asking what her daughter wants and just find really interesting gifts that you think she should have. That way she gets a non-sparkly influence as well.

It's really rude to specify what gifts you want if the person hasn't actually asked you.

One thing about being a parent is that you can't control much of your child's experiences, but you can discuss them. My daughter was a full-time princess when she was 4, as an adult she's just read Invisible Women and is definitely a feminist.

Thehollyandtheirony · 04/12/2020 13:53

What about option 4? You’ve been watching Attenborough and you now feel very guilty about the amount of plastic in your house. Talk to her about how you are trying to cut down on plastic in every area and you noticed that your DD’s bedroom has the most. ‘Discover’ an eco toy shop and share the wonderous things you’ve found. They are generally not so overtly gendered.

Girlyracer · 04/12/2020 14:17

I think there's too much emphasis on girls and boys toys. Throw the lot at them, they're toys.

My DD loved her toy vacuum, cute kitchen and the rest. She also loved her Spider-Man dress up outfit, blue go kart and never liked anything pink.

She's an average girl 12 year old girl who likes clothes and make-up but who loves active team sports, football and rugby and enjoys getting dirty cleaning bikes with my DH.

3timeslucky · 04/12/2020 14:28

We had a similar situation with my ILs. There was a "Hooker Barbie", make-up, nail-painting and a range of things that made me wince but also were not of interest to my dd. Some I "disappeared" and some dd and I discussed and went straight to a charity shop.

I don't know if that is "sucking it up" but it was definitely non-confrontational which was dh's choice with his elderly parents.

The upside is that because the gifts jarred (and still jar) with what my dd likes and is interested in it has meant we have had conversations about stereotypes and how daft they are but also speculative chats about what might be leading to the odd purchasing decisions (stereotyping, not really knowing someone, wishful thinking from their own childhood). So maybe it wasn't all bad.

minipie · 04/12/2020 14:40

Sorry OP I thought you had said she was a feminist and so I wondered if you could have the discussion about gendered toys as part of your feminism discussions... but I have clearly got the wrong end of the stick there and there aren’t any feminism discussions!

TBH I don’t think there is an option 2. Anything subtle will get missed and anything blunt is a bit rude given this is a gift. The only thing I can think of is saying DD has gone right off pink lately, or words to that effect.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2020 19:51

Jane knows me so well that if I say "Thanks so much for your very kind and generous gifts" (ie polite but no reference to DD4 liking them), she will definitely take from that that DD4 doesn't like the gifts...

Well, that sounds like the perfect solution, no?

McCanne · 04/12/2020 22:29

Do you do toy clearouts with your daughter? Before birthdays and christmases we go through the toys in the house and my daughter more or less decides what to keep and what to donate. She’s 5 and we’ve been doing it for a couple of years now. I don’t refuse gifts on her behalf, but with the clearouts she gets to choose what she keeps and doesn’t according to her own likes and interests, and I get to sneakily donate things that she hasn’t showed the remotest bi of interest in. My family does know what her interests are but have at times also continued to buy things, including ‘girly’ things, outside her interests but tbh it’s fine, there are things it wouldn’t have occurred to me to give her and things she doesn’t know exist.

Anxioustoddler · 04/12/2020 22:54

I had a friend like you, wouldn’t let you buy pink princess esque stuff for her daughter. But when her son came along she requested it constantly for him. Bizarre.

Your daughter clearly has lots of ‘neutral’ toys. The odd girly toy won’t turn her into a bimbo so personally I’d say suck it up, they might turn out to be your daughters favourite toy, they might not.

QueenBlueberries · 04/12/2020 23:04

I have 10 years experience as a childminder and most girls who like pink grow out of it. Once they are 7 or 8, they think pink is for babies. On the positive, many girly toys and craft encourage better fine motor skills, necessary if she want to become a surgeon.

In my experience, it’s about achieving a balance and offering different opportunities to play creatively.

mooncakes · 05/12/2020 11:09

[quote Thegeesearegettingfat2020]@minipie I don't actually know if Jane would even call herself a feminist and she would definitely be a lot less interested in feminism than I am. I think she would be highly offended if I started openly discussing the "little princess" attitude to little girls because she would take it as a criticism not just of everything she has ever bought my daughter but also of her own parenting. Also I do really think it's her own business how she raises her own daughter but by the same token I suppose it feels like she is imposing her own ideals on mine!

I am very conscious that this will get much worse when it comes to school, class parties etc - I've adverted to that in my OP - but I don't expect Jane to start or accelerate the princessification process!

I started this thread because I wondered what I should do:

  1. Suck it up or
  2. Try to guide Jane away from this sort of stuff gently (and if so, given she has so far proved impervious to hints about my daughter's actual interests, how) or
  3. Go nuclear by explaining to Jane my thoughts on society's assumption that there are girls' toys and boys' toys, that girls' toys must be pink etc etc - this would be nuclear because it would be received as a clear criticism of her parenting and her gifts. Nobody has suggested I do that and I don't think I should either.

It seems the majority consensus is suck it up...it will continue to bother me the way it bothers me when eg people refer to me by my husband's name. I will probably try further subtle hints such as the suggestion I got earlier about suggesting that her interests have "changed". But I do struggle with wording that in a way that would have the desired result given that it's not just that Jane is buying one type of toy - she is buying all toys through the lens of "gifts for girls".

@AnotherEmma @KnitsAndGiggles I acknowledge that saying DD4 loves the gifts is muddying the waters... the trouble is Jane knows me so well that if I say "Thanks so much for your very kind and generous gifts" (ie polite but no reference to DD4 liking them), she will definitely take from that that DD4 doesn't like the gifts... which is fine if that's the desired end, but the majority here seems to think I shouldn't be letting Jane know that DD does not like them? As in, not saying that DD4 loves the gift is not neutral, it is a positive action.[/quote]
I'd definitely go for a combination of:
"Thanks so much for your very kind and generous gifts" (ie polite but no reference to DD4 liking them), she will definitely take from that that DD4 doesn't like the gifts...

while also gently mentioning that DD has "gone off pink" or really likes a particular gender neutral book/lego set/marble run/soft toy.

and then just letting your DD have whatever the gift is but charity shopping it if it isn't a hit.

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