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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WWYD? Stereotyped gifts for my young daughter

99 replies

Thegeesearegettingfat2020 · 02/12/2020 12:40

Posting here because I don't want a load of replies about girls having different brains, being biologically programmed to love pink, etc...!

A female very close to me, I will call her Jane, has DD8 while I have DD4. We always exchange birthday and Christmas presents for our children (and always will - this is non-negotiable).

Jane has a very successful career and is a feminist in the sense that she does not believe a woman's place is in the home etc and supports equal rights for women in theory, but she is very adherent to sex stereotypes when it comes to children. I am, as she knows (or really ought to by now!), a campaigning feminist and support eg the work of Let Toys be Toys. I hate it when adults foist stereotypes on children.

I am also realistic that sadly growing up in this world children absorb the expectations around them and like to fit in. Accordingly, whereas I will never push my daughter to like stereotypically "girly" things, I am conscious that in all likelihood she will grow to like princesses and pink and dolls and sparkles once she starts school. I will always be guided by her likes and dislikes - if she truly wants a sparkly princess doll for her birthday I will get her one. However I will not encourage her being fed the message that she should want one because she is a girl.

Currently DD4 is still in that space where she has no idea what she is "supposed" to like. Her particular interests are books, animals, Lego, imaginative role play and puzzles.

For every occasion without fail, Jane sends a generous present that is a collection of the pinkest, most stereotypically "girly" things she can find. There will nearly always be a doll dressed in pink that doesn't do anything more than the doll dressed in pink she sent last time. DD4 will play briefly with the new toys for novelty value then revert to her preferred toys.

I worry about the message that the gifts received are sending DD4. I don't want to give the details in case it is outing but the last gift received was so hideously sexist (and a giant pink plastic monstrosity) that DH and I both agreed it should not be given to DD4 at all. We managed to bring it back and exchange it for a pile of books which she loved. However this is rarely possible and I worry that as DD4 gets older she is more likely to be in direct contact with Jane who will ask her whether she liked specific presents (Jane lives on a different continent and visits rarely).

Do you think there is any way to approach this without offending Jane, who is a lovely person? Subtle hints about DD4's preferred toys don't seem to work (eg "She really loves books" = best case scenario, the next present will be another doll plus a book called "How to Be a Princess (extra sparkles edition)"). I suppose as a matter of politeness I do say to Jane that DD4 loved her gifts so perhaps she thinks this is a sign she is on the right track... but anything else would feel rude!

Jane never asks what DD4 might like before buying and seems to think that doing so is bad etiquette. In contrast, I always ask what her DD8's interests are. She has always responded that DD8 is into pink, sparkles, dolls, princesses or other "girly" stuff. DD8 was always guided that way from birth - clothes saying "Little Princess" etc. I always buy in accordance with what I'm told she likes. However I think Jane takes from this that I am on board with the idea that this is the sort of stuff all female children like or should like. It adds the complication that if I told Jane straight out and in clear terms what my thoughts are on society's princessification of little girls, she would likely interpret it as a criticism of her own parenting.

I know it seems so ungrateful but I would genuinely rather Jane sent my daughter a second-hand classic book costing £1 than a giant pink plastic role play beauty salon... is there a way to navigate this sensitively? Help!

OP posts:
JanewaysBun · 02/12/2020 14:20

You could maybe catch her next say June and say DD would love art stuff for Xmas. So even if she buys a pink princess colouring book that should be ok as it's a colouring book about princesses not insinuating that yoir DD should become a princess?

SpamIAm · 02/12/2020 14:27

Unless Jane supplies 100% of your daughters toys I really can't see what the issue is. If anything it sounds like you're potentially sending your daughter the message that things traditionally associated with girls/women are lower value. Like when people say they don't want to conform to enforce gender stereotypes on their child but all that actually means is they don't dress them in pink, because pink is bad and boy colours are good.

We've generally bought neutral toys for our DD, particularly when she was younger and couldn't express a preference. Other people tended to buy pink, and I did raise an eyebrow when someone bought her a vacuum cleaner instead of the building blocks I'd suggested. But oh well, it means overall she has a good mixture of toys.

Unless the unwanted gift was a big pink pole for dancing I can't see how it was so horrendously sexist that you couldn't allow your daughter to play with it.

Thegeesearegettingfat2020 · 02/12/2020 14:33

I also think if I'm being totally honest with myself there are two separate issues here:

  1. I don't want my daughter being overexposed to stereotyped expectations if I can help it AND
  1. I am on some level offended that Jane, to whom I am very close, thinks that I would want my daughter flooded by stereotyped expectations regardless of her interests... I suppose I feel like Jane is showing that she thinks that I have a sexist attitude to children, which I find offensive in itself, but also she is showing that on some level she doesn't really know me very well! Even my ILs would know better...!

But I appreciate that point 2 above may be attributing a hell of a lot more to kind, if very pink, gifts for my daughter than I reasonably should!

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 02/12/2020 14:55

I had the opposite problem with my Mil, who for some time only bought my dds (ugly) things from the boys’ range. To the point that I felt she had actually longed for a grandson, and had never actually looked at her granddaughters .
With presents, both my dds have liked a wide variety of things, things to do with nature and exploring, often given to boys , along with the most hideous doll with massive feel wearing a skimpy outfit. Like pps have said, different things have appealed to them at different times, toys are just toys.
However if I had someone who only gave a very specific type of present that my child wasn’t going to like at all, I would probably try hinting about her interests, a few months before, as has been suggested.
It might not work though, my Mil still buys them terrible presents and they are teenagers now...

AnotherEmma · 02/12/2020 15:10

I know what you mean about 2, it can be upsetting to receive gifts that are so off the mark as you feel that the person can't know you very well, but it's not usually about you, it's just that many people just aren't very good at gift-giving; they buy things they like rather than thinking about what the recipient would like. Maybe gift giving is one of your "love languages" but not one of hers.

Backbee · 02/12/2020 15:20

Does Jane know your daughter particularly well? She probably thinks she is playing it 'safe', it doesn't sound from what you have posted that she has spends much time with her, and she posts them as she is your friend. Personally I don't see the issue with some pink and sparkly toys, I agree with a PP that often stereotypically girls toys are seen to hold lower value than those traditionally for boys, and even in all toys are toys seen as bad. But as the parent it matters if you have an issue or not, and if you do then maybe just be clearer about the sort of things. You could even say she has so many toys we don't have room for more even though the thought is very kind.

Eowynthewarrior · 02/12/2020 15:24

On the toys be toys approach perhaps it friends how you encourage your daughter to play with them. So the pink beauty salon .. it’s just a shop so you can do the role play bringing in all the buiseness skills making her thinking about it as a business she is running , communication with customers, ow much she has made in profit . I used to love those kids sweet shops and post offices as a kid pretending it was my shop. Also when given girlie dolls I changed their outfits made them viking helmets and swords and fought battles with my male cousins action man. My Boudicca doll won ....

ReggaetonLente · 02/12/2020 15:31

Completely get that OP and feel the same about my in laws. The pink frilly flammable monstrosities they managed to procure when they found out we were having a baby girl made me want to call them up and say "REALLY?! You've known me for 10 years, and you think THIS is how I'm going to dress my baby?"

But in the grand scheme of things, i don't think its worth upsetting anyone. Smile, thank you, charity shop. As i said upthread they still send pink plastic crap without fail at every opportunity, and their relationship with DD is marked by their lack of interest in her actual personality.

As Jane is your friend, rather than a relative, its sad for you rather than your daughter but i would keep quiet all the same.

contactusdeletus · 02/12/2020 19:32

It sounds as if Jane doesn't really know your daughter, and being so far away she falls back on "what my daughter would have liked at that age" or "what the shop assistant tells me is great for a four year old girl", when out shopping for a gift.

Would it help if you sent her lots of pictures of DD surrounded by her decidedly non-pink, non-"girly" toys? Just, bombard her with "cute" snaps you've taken until she can no longer picture these presents as being what your child would want.

And then slip in a few jokes about how DD has taken a sudden violent dislike of pink. Isn't it funny how kids can be, haha, insert example of DD hating a pink present you yourself tried to buy her , etc.

NewlyGranny · 02/12/2020 19:35

Worst girly toy I ever saw was an amputated mannequin head for playing hairdressers on! It just gave me the creeps... Dismembered body parts and all that. 🤦🏼‍♀️

gottakeeponmovin · 02/12/2020 19:44

I think a PP had it spit in. Your daughter should play with what she wants - if your friend sends sparky girly stuff others can give her cars and dragons. Then she has a choice. It's one lot of gifts - not an issue.

BlackWaveComing · 02/12/2020 19:45

My in-laws were like this.

We allowed the child to.play with the toy/gift for a time. Then it would migrate to the back shed for a time and finally, go to the thrift store.

One child grew up loving feminine things. One child didn't. I don't think the toys made a difference, but they did infuriate me.

People like this won't take hints - oh, Becky is loving her Lego! - so there's nothing much to be done.

Mostly I hated the waste. These highly gendered products always seem to be made out if cheap plastic - just ugh.

BlackWaveComing · 02/12/2020 19:46

@NewlyGranny

Worst girly toy I ever saw was an amputated mannequin head for playing hairdressers on! It just gave me the creeps... Dismembered body parts and all that. 🤦🏼‍♀️
Oh God, my MIL bought one of those for my girls...
Babdoc · 02/12/2020 20:04

This brings back memories of me drawing moustaches on my unwanted doll presents with a biro...!
OP, this woman is on another continent. Presumably you rarely see her.
Here are two options:

  1. Why not just tell her that you are trying to reduce the amount of plastic crap/materialism in DD’s life and as she gets far too much “stuff” at Christmas and birthdays anyway, you would prefer to no longer exchange presents? Suggest that a card will be sufficient in future. Alternatively just be honest:
  2. “I can’t abide the pink sexist crap you keep sending DD. Please stop it.” The latter would possibly end the friendship. Your call!
EdgeOfACoin · 02/12/2020 20:26

If anything it sounds like you're potentially sending your daughter the message that things traditionally associated with girls/women are lower value. Like when people say they don't want to conform to enforce gender stereotypes on their child but all that actually means is they don't dress them in pink, because pink is bad and boy colours are good.

I came on here to say this. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with pink sparkly things because they are traditionally associated with girls. Toys that are typically for girls are not automatically inferior than those that are typically for boys. Would you have the same issue if your friend bought your daughter a car-related toy each year?

Your daughter being encouraged to play with a range of toys is the important thing.

It's fine to reject stereotypes but guard against devaluing everything associated with femininity.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 02/12/2020 20:33

If anything it sounds like you're potentially sending your daughter the message that things traditionally associated with girls/women are lower value. Like when people say they don't want to conform to enforce gender stereotypes on their child but all that actually means is they don't dress them in pink, because pink is bad and boy colours are good.

Yes this.

A range of toys is best I think Smile

LaValliere · 02/12/2020 20:35

Say you’d like to read more feminist theory & you’d love it if the two of you could embark on this together (a reading club of two) because you so respect her take on things. For your first book suggest Cinderella Ate My Daughter. Even if she disagrees with it, you’ll be able to make your points.

SirVixofVixHall · 02/12/2020 20:44

@NewlyGranny

Worst girly toy I ever saw was an amputated mannequin head for playing hairdressers on! It just gave me the creeps... Dismembered body parts and all that. 🤦🏼‍♀️
I must admit to really longing for one of those. It was a newly launched toy when I was a little girl.
ArabellaScott · 02/12/2020 20:45

I have relatives who consistently buy the pinkest, frilliest, shittiest plasticest girliest shite for my daughter. It's deliberate - they don't like that I'm not especially 'feminine' conforming and it's a bit of a dig.

Said toys invariably break very quickly/don't work, and provide a good discussion point for why some people think 'pink is for girls', etc. On the other hand, sometimes my daughter picks out the most jaw droppingly tasteless guff from the charity shop - a horse's head that one could 'style' the mane on being one particularly outlandish memorable choice. I haven't ever criticised her choice of toys - play is a deep and complex thing that is her business, really.

FWIW, I was INCREDIBLY girly as a child, at least for a period of time. It didn't stick. Smile

SirVixofVixHall · 02/12/2020 20:53

I do agree with not devaluing traditionally feminine toys, that is what my MIl did and it actually felt a bit sad. Yet another jumper from the boys’ department, only traditionally boy’s toys or things like very ugly watches.
But I can also see that your friend is not really seeing you and your dd . Do you think it would be different if she was more local to you ?

merryhouse · 02/12/2020 20:56

Girl's World! I soooooooo wanted one!

Fairly sure it didn't creep out any of the kids (mind you, considering children's tv in the 70s a disembodied doll's head was nothing).

I had 24 dolls by the time I stopped playing with them. None of them was dressed in sparkly pink - not a thing in those days - but one had a bride's dress, one was a fashion doll in a jumpsuit, one walked and talked and a whole load were babies (the Tiny Tears belonged to my younger sister though).

I also played with Lego and was top of the class for all maths and science subjects.

DidoLamenting · 02/12/2020 20:57

@EdgeOfACoin

If anything it sounds like you're potentially sending your daughter the message that things traditionally associated with girls/women are lower value. Like when people say they don't want to conform to enforce gender stereotypes on their child but all that actually means is they don't dress them in pink, because pink is bad and boy colours are good.

I came on here to say this. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with pink sparkly things because they are traditionally associated with girls. Toys that are typically for girls are not automatically inferior than those that are typically for boys. Would you have the same issue if your friend bought your daughter a car-related toy each year?

Your daughter being encouraged to play with a range of toys is the important thing.

It's fine to reject stereotypes but guard against devaluing everything associated with femininity.

And don't forget if the pink, sparkly, rubbish toy is picked up by a boy it instantly becomes acceptable.
Thegeesearegettingfat2020 · 02/12/2020 21:01

The point on rejecting all things feminine is not a fair one I don't think - as in it is a valid point, but it does not apply to me or these circumstances. My daughter for example does not only wear clothes that a boy (according to gendered norms) could also wear - she has some dresses, she sometimes wears pink (so do I, on both counts!). I want her to have a range of toys. I am not however keen on her being fed a consistent message by any adult (and Jane is an important adult in her life) that everything for girls must be pink. Whereas I have myself bought my daughter something she wanted that happened to be pink, I can't abide the norm in the toy industry to have toys "colour-coded" in pink for girls. I agree my daughter benefits from a range of toys - I don't think she benefits from the message that eg there are boys' train sets (in any colour except pink) and girls' train sets (pink). Jane will go with the pink "colour-coded" version every time.

Similarly, I am totally on board with her having a doll. She could have more than one if she liked them. But one doll is a good toy for any child. 6 dolls in succession are only good presents for children who like dolls...

Stopping presents isn't an option. I don't want to be outing but Jane is a female who is very close to me despite being far away geographically and not "just" a friend who lives overseas.

To the PP who said would I be bothered if she got a car-related present every year (actually we exchange presents twice or thrice a year) - I'd probably be rather confused and surprised yes, because that's a lot of cars and I've never suggested that my daughter likes cars, but I would be less bothered because I would assume that the rationale behind this was something other than a sexist assumption... and also because my daughter likes cars more than she likes dolls. I wouldn't be delighted if I had a son who was persistently purchased the same type of very gendered toys contrary to his stated interests either.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 02/12/2020 22:36

No other person will have the deep sway and influence you have as a mother, OP.

I would just talk about it and focus on maintaining a great bond with your daughter, personally. Or maybe ask for no toys in future- most children already have too many, I know mine do. I asked my MIL to stop with large gifts as we just didn't have space in a tiny flat. She didn't take it well, tbh.

Canwecancel2020 · 02/12/2020 22:46

@NewlyGranny

Worst girly toy I ever saw was an amputated mannequin head for playing hairdressers on! It just gave me the creeps... Dismembered body parts and all that. 🤦🏼‍♀️
To be fair I wish we had one of these instead of my 5 year old taking the scissors to her little sister Xmas Confused