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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

288 replies

OldeMagick · 02/12/2020 01:12

It's about halfway in

Emily Maitlis not giving an inch Grin

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pyyc/newsnight-01122020

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TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 03/12/2020 14:08

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PotholeParadies · 03/12/2020 14:10

Finn it's mindboggling. I'd expect more rigorous data collection from a year 11 doing a science project.

OvaHere · 03/12/2020 15:12

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ThatIsNotMyUsername · 03/12/2020 15:17

Want to be young, pretty, fit men then? I can imagine anyone wanting to look like Homer Simpson...

nauticant · 03/12/2020 15:17

I'd imagine they had in mind looking like an anime girly-boy:

www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/291889619575796061/

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 03/12/2020 15:17

Can’t imagine, can’t! Although it takes all sorts I suppose.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2020 15:49

they never wanted to be actual men just non women

I find this really very sad.

Abitofalark · 03/12/2020 15:57

@nauticant

I was troubled by what I heard on Woman's Hour Angryresister. I honestly think the BBC are afraid of reporting honestly about this case and are motivated to soften its impact.
Yes I heard it too and while I thought the reporter had a good knowledge of the case - no problem on that score - I felt annoyed with the interview and noted how at the end she was keen to tell us there will be an appeal. Really? The Court of Appeal might have something to say about that. It's not something she could know as the would-be appellant has to apply to the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal; the application hadn't been heard at that point. I saw a date for it later this month. The reporter was so eager to jump the gun there and I wondered why.
yourhairiswinterfire · 03/12/2020 17:06

Has anyone seen this (apologies if it's already been discussed).

ripx4nutmeg posted it on Twitter, this doctor ran an adult gender dysphoria psychotherapy clinic, and 26% of his patients over a 12 year period were 'regretters'.

I'd love to hear more from him but his Twitter is private (can't say I blame him). Seems this may have been some time ago, before the current social contagion, and dealing with adults that were able to fully consent, too.

No one bothered to check up on these people either. They were a 'lost statistic' :(

Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/12/2020 17:10

@yourhairiswinterfire

Has anyone seen this (apologies if it's already been discussed).

ripx4nutmeg posted it on Twitter, this doctor ran an adult gender dysphoria psychotherapy clinic, and 26% of his patients over a 12 year period were 'regretters'.

I'd love to hear more from him but his Twitter is private (can't say I blame him). Seems this may have been some time ago, before the current social contagion, and dealing with adults that were able to fully consent, too.

No one bothered to check up on these people either. They were a 'lost statistic' :(

More about him on his website:

www.drazhakeem.com/specialist-psychotherapy-for-gender-dysphoria/

Sounds like a pretty rational person.

3timeslucky · 03/12/2020 17:20

I had never heard Susie Green (or Keira Bell) speak until yesterday.

Two things struck me about SG.

First, that she is massively over-invested in her child. Unhealthily so.
Her child is her project. She has to defend the Mermaid position (and reject the findings of the court) because to do otherwise is to acknowledge what she had done to her child (and also what she has actively facilitated being done to other children). The guilt would be over-whelming were she to acknowledge what she is responsible for. She does not come across as very well balanced. She is a perfect example of why impartial, objective, evidence-based, multi-disciplinary services are required. Those with skin in the game, whether parents of children with dysphoria or trans-identifying adults should not be let within an asses' roar of these vulnerable children or their parents. In Ireland the problem is exemplified by TENI who are involved everywhere you turn, largely peopled by late-transitioning transwomen.

Second, which also suggests that she is not well-balanced: the repeated references to suicide as an inevitable outcome for children with dysphoria who are not facilitated in their hopes/wishes/demands (specifically in this case puberty blockers). The repeated references to this inevitability connects to her need to justify the appalling decisions she has made. Its function in arm-twisting frightened parents is another matter.

While I was horrified listening to her I also saw this persona built within a scaffolding which is slowly being pulled down around her. I can't say I felt sorry for her, but she is clearly someone who will need help to come to terms with what she has done. She is totally invested in this fantasy and needs it to continue for her own sense of self.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 03/12/2020 17:25

This is one of Dr Hakeem’s papers:
www.researchgate.net/publication/273461356_Psychotherapy_for_Gender_Identity_Disorders

He wrote this. I bought a copy ages ago and then accidentally left it on a plane having only read the intro!

www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Gender-Identity-Dysphoria/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Professional Background: www.priorygroup.com/consultants/dr-az-hakeem

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/12/2020 17:29

Thanks Fine and Betty. Going to have a read.

HPFA · 03/12/2020 17:39

Suggestion about complaining to the BBC.

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1334246406266171400

Datun · 03/12/2020 17:46

I wish Emily Maitliss had asked Susie Green why she thought so many children were gender dysphoric.

What was the cause?

HPFA · 03/12/2020 17:47

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DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 03/12/2020 18:02

PotholeParadies that would suggest that blocking puberty of boys would make them extra tall?

Dogs aren’t people, but early neutering in large dogs seems to develop taller dogs.

endofthelinefinally · 03/12/2020 19:39

I wonder if anything about this will be on QT tonight? Or maybe it is too recent.

Sexnotgender · 03/12/2020 19:43

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

PotholeParadies that would suggest that blocking puberty of boys would make them extra tall?

Dogs aren’t people, but early neutering in large dogs seems to develop taller dogs.

There’s male lions in a rescue near me that were neutered really early - they never even got time to develop manes. They’re MASSIVE.
Sexnotgender · 03/12/2020 19:46

Interesting. This is actually from a vet but does it apply to humans too?

Puberty initiates a release of hormones that help close the epiphyseal plates on long bones. Absent this signal, the long bones grow beyond their intended length and interfere with the normal size and mechanical relationship between bone and joint.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 03/12/2020 20:08

This seems to be the original veterinary study?

(Page 2 onwards, it’s a proper scientific paper but the only place I could find it published without needing a log in was at a breeders website)

rockymtnlabradoodles.com/wp-content/uploads/Early-Spay_neuter.pdf

OldCrone · 03/12/2020 20:19

@Sexnotgender

Interesting. This is actually from a vet but does it apply to humans too?

Puberty initiates a release of hormones that help close the epiphyseal plates on long bones. Absent this signal, the long bones grow beyond their intended length and interfere with the normal size and mechanical relationship between bone and joint.

From this article about the skeleton of a castrato, it seems that it does also apply to humans.

www.nature.com/articles/srep28463/

Even if all these skeletal markers confirmed the advanced age at death of Pacchierotti (81 years old), the epiphyseal lines on the iliac crests were visible (Fig. 3). These lines usually are fused at 23 years old and no more traces can be found in 90–100% of over 35 years old males.

Castrati were usually tall, with a large barrel-shaped chest, infantile larynx, long, spindly legs. Pacchierotti’s bones confirmed these characteristics, in particular the height, that was estimated measuring femurs, tibiae and humeri length and gave a value of around 191 cm.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 04/12/2020 09:55

I have just come across a series of tweets that Jackie Green wrote in reply to Janice Turner in 2018 (handily retweeted by a very active TRA today).

In the tweets, Jackie says that they told their parents age 5 that 'God made a mistake' in making Jackie a boy. Jackie then goes on to say that for a long time they were made to play with action men and other 'boys toys' when what they wanted to play with was Barbies and mermaid toys. Jackie also says that they had surgery to correct their 'small birth defect'.

This does all rather go against the current Mermaids line that a) gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with stereotypes including toys and b) that no one is born in the wrong body.

It's just all such contradictory bullshit.

According to their twitter, Jackie has just recently set up a Tiktok account with a hashtag of #transisbeautiful and I really really hope that Jackie is living a happy and contented life as a transwoman. Because the alternative just doesn't even bear thinking about.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 04/12/2020 10:05

That's really interesting about the bone growth stopping in puberty. For some reason I had always assumed that puberty blockers would stop bone growth but the concept of blockers blocking the signal to stop bone growth totally makes sense.

Nikkie de Jaeger is very tall and big built and I used to think 'wow, and that's with puberty blockers, imagine how tall they would have been without' - but it makes more sense that the blockers caused that height and frame.

Although I just looked it up and Jazz Jennings is only 5ft 2 so I don't know?

Does all that mean that people who have been on blockers will have joint pain etc because of abnormal bone growth? Sad

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 04/12/2020 10:13

I would imagine Jazz went on the medical pathway at a younger age than most (purely based on the fact Jazz has been socially transed from 4/5 on telly since the age of 11)

m.youtube.com/watch?v=bJw3s85EcxM

Blocking puberty entirely/blocking from tanner stage 2/3/4 will all affect growth in different ways.

If only someone had actually tracked the data, eh?