Eton sacks teacher for lecture on 'current radical feminist orthodoxy'

[stumbledin]

I cant make any sense of this story as reported in the Daily Mail, and the version in the Telegraph is behind a paywall.

Quote from DM:

The class was for older students taking the Perspectives module, where they are told to critique topics of public debate.

Eton has been accused of 'prioritising emotional safety over intellectual challenge' after banning the lesson.

'The head master felt that some of the ideas put forward in my lecture – such as the view that men and women differ psychologically and not all of those differences are socially constructed – were too dangerous for the boys to be exposed to.

'I explained to the head master that I wasn't endorsing all the ideas in my lecture, but I wanted the boys to be made aware of a different point of view to the current radical feminist orthodoxy, which insists that there's something fundamentally toxic about masculinity.

'In my lecture, I pointed out that, historically, masculine qualities like strength, courage and tenacity have often been as beneficial to women as they have been to men.'

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Anyhow, there are so many elements to this, posh school, cant they manage a debate, but then it turns out it isn't a debate but a man saying women (feminists) are being unfair to men.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8991981/Eton-College-SACKS-English-master-producing-lecture-questioned-radical-feminist-orthodoxy.html

The link to the Telegraph article is in the DM one, and today they are saying local MP is urging Eton not to let woke outsiders influence them.

The 'arguments' he is using are the same ones used by incels to radicalise young boys. They lack the critical thinking ability to challenge them, thats pretty much how radicalisation happens.

They are not being offered in a neutral way.

@queenofknives

I'm a teacher. I put "controversial" views in front of my students all the time. Funnily enough, none of them have keeled over in a fit of pearl-clutching outrage when they find out that people have a range of opinions, some of which they strongly disagree with. This guy teaches a course called "perspectives" - wtf is he supposed to do? Check with you that his course content matches your opinions? You - someone who perpetuates what you know to be damaging gender nonsense because you don't have enough wit, courage or integrity to stand up to it. You, who will forever be cowering away from the truth, cringing in the shadows, hoping you're not found out, pointing the finger at others (do it to her! not me!) and desperately trying not to see that you are part of the problem. Get some critical thinking skills, develop some integrity, and grow a spine before it's too late. Maybe then you'll have an argument worth listening to and won't have to pretend people are 'thick'when they express coherent principles and call out your hypocrital bullshit.

I agree with this.

You can't have classes where people discuss perspectives if pupils are only allowed to discuss safe perspectives which won't offend anyone.

Calling those of us who think its important to debate rather than shut down 'MRA supporters' or 'thick' is not a lot better than trans activists calling us TERFs or haters.

If you have nothing but name calling you having nothing at all.

Do you think the teacher has made that video to give a carefully balanced and factual debate that will teach critical thinking skills?

The 'arguments' he is using are the same ones used by incels to radicalise young boys. They lack the critical thinking ability to challenge them, thats pretty much how radicalisation happens. They are not being offered in a neutral way

They were being offered in a critical thinking class! I would have thought a good strategy for such a class is to offer a one-sided view and then get people to debate it. As for the idea that schools can't offer critical thinking opportunities as kids can't think.... I am not quite sure what you think education is for.

Xiaoxiong thanks for your replies.

when the person who was meant to be presenting the opposite perspective pulled out

I read three articles on this in various online newspapers yet managed to miss this being reported, much appreciated.

My poorly worded line about not knowing how many videos was actually in reference to how many other topics were presented/debated throughout the Perspectives module, not specifically how many for this rad gem v patriarchy debate. I was wondering if he has form for including this point of view.

He does state on his YouTube channel that the views presented are not necessarily those of Eton, and not even necessarily representative of his own views, for what that’s worth as a disclaimer.

The Equality Act section was interesting. Is there even a Person A in this scenario? You lost me with that because it seems that Person A is the one feeling a hostile environment has been created by Person B but then asks whether B was offended and was B reasonable to be offended... I’m assuming you meant whether A was offended etc. If not, I need to read again and draw a little diagram or something.

Finally, while the ultimate presentation wasn’t in a debate setting, it also wasn’t in the work environment. It was on a personal account.

I’m not making great arguments here, I know that, and sure there are debates to be had over how much control employers can exert over their employees’ lives, but academia/education is not an area for unpopular views to be suppressed. That’s not an enlightened approach.

I do not support factual, truthful speech being policed as hate speech, and I do not support hateful speech or lies being presented as fact - and especially not if the audience are schoolchildren

If he was expressing those views as facts in a social science class I would agree with you. Just as I object to Mermaid's position being taught as fact in schools and corporate training.

But to present these views to be torn apart and scrutinised in a critical thinking class I am happy with, just as I would be happy with Mermaid's views (Or GC views) to be torn apart and scrutinised in a critical thinking class.

I would hope such a class also helps children to differentiate between views supported by solid evidence and those held on anecdote/faith alone.

The 'arguments' he is using are the same ones used by incels to radicalise young boys...They are not being offered in a neutral way.

Arguments should be offered in a neutral way? That’s not really an argument, then, is it?

Whether it’s incels, islamists, politics, feminism, religion etc—isn’t the purpose of argument to change the other to your point of view?

We use radicalise generally when speaking of so-called progressive ideas but it also can be used in the sense of fundamental, or what some would see as regressive.

And frankly, if he is using incel arguments, I think it is good that that is being done in a environment where those arguments are to be challenged. Much better that, then boys listen to that rubbish alone in their bedrooms with you tube offering more and more of the same. You are not going to stop boys being exposed to those views by stopping them being debated in schools.

I'm a second wave feminist and, for my pains - and it was painful - watched his entire video. His narration sounded as if he actually believed it and I am guessing it is his personal view.

I take the point that lawyers deemed it was illegal. However, setting that aside, so much of what he said could be shot down in flames very easily.

I would have liked it shown alongside another, setting out a different perspective and encourage debate. Isn't that what critical thinking is supposed to be about?

As a feminist in the sixties and seventies I had more than my fair share of slings and arrows for maintaining my views against the prevailing orthodoxy of that time. But I have never ever subscribed to the current cancel culture.

If we object to be shut up as feminists, we cannot object to those of opposite views being shut up. I believe our arguments are strong enough to concede that we are a mix of nature and nurture and be able to put forward cogent arguments against the many knee-jerk fallacies that video contains.

Let the two sides be shown and the pupils be made to think critically.

I don't think lesson plans are a freedom of speech issue. The question is whether the lesson plan is really about critical thinking or just an exercise in propaganda. He's an English teacher. The video isn't a critique of feminism at all, it's just an MRA rant. Is the opposing video supposed to be a defence of feminism or a critique and analysis of patriarchy.
Critical thinking isn't a boxing match debate , win lose, its objectively questioning and weighing up evidence and pros and cons.
He's trying to make this a freedom of speech issue because he believes this rubbish and thinks he should have the right to influence his pupils.

@Thelnebriati

Do you think the teacher has made that video to give a carefully balanced and factual debate that will teach critical thinking skills?

No. It was intended to present one side of an argument in a critical thinking lesson that didn’t occur when the other side pulled out, as a pp stated recently upthread.

They lack the critical thinking ability to challenge them

How patronising.
There are plenty of intelligent, articulate teenagers that can challenge arguments.

The boys exist in a bubble in a place where MRA / anti women views are likely to prevail. Just as we don't expect our black teachers to supply lessons rebutting racist views, why should females (and lesbians) have to take this shit on? We need to ensure a small minority (females here) are not expected to argue this.

It is not a debate. It is a misogynist attempting to take down female staff.

It is an MRA position which I think is questionable in so many ways. But these are children, some as young as 13.

IMo the issue is that he is in a position of power using his platform to promote his views. This is clear cos he calls it 'feminist orthodoxy which says all masculinity is toxic'.

So he clearly has no clue about feminism but has his own views to promote, incorrectly, to kids.

why should females (and lesbians) have to take this shit on?

Why not? I'd rather hear what people actually think and have the chance to argue back than be treated as though I am in need of special protection... against ideas. They're just ideas, and if they're bad ideas, they can be argued down and better ideas be given instead. Then we can argue about those - thus we are constantly raising the level of debate and everyone's understanding.

(I also think that it's a bit unfair to suggest that Eton must be a hotbed of incels and MRAs. Maybe it is, but I'd want to see the evidence. In fact, isn't it just this kind of unfounded assumption that many men are objecting to - isn't that part of the appeal of people like Peterson, that he says it's not inherently bad to be male? Most boys love their mums, after all. Most straight boys want a relationship with a girl, and want to be fathers some day.)

My students wouldn't want to be protected from an argument, either. Many of them are good critical thinkers, and they can spot a logical fallacy a mile off. They put a lot of work in to figuring out how to most effectively argue against the ideas they disagree with. It's great to see them in action. I can't believe anyone would prefer them to sit meekly in a 'safe space' demanding that everyone be careful not to hurt their feelings. Most young people are passionate! Why shouldn't they have an outlet for that? It's good for them.

Shutting down of debate because you believe your position should be the only sanctioned one is so hugely dangerous, and the fact that so many women on these feminists boards don't experience cognitive dissonance with the: we must discuss this and not be shut down! rhetoric on trans, whilst at the same time saying 'you mustn't discuss biological differnecs in gender' because that it's hateful! is astounding.

Yep. It's frustrating.

If you have nothing but name calling you having nothing at all.

Thank you. Good thing to remember.

The divinity master of Eton has now resigned. In an article in the Daily Telegraph it quotes him saying he is worried that critical thinking is no longer being taught at Eton and the increasingly woke culture pervading the school reminds him of religious fundamentalism.

Well. It’s all going on at Eton, isn’t it?

the fact that so many women on these feminists boards don't experience cognitive dissonance with the: we must discuss this and not be shut down! rhetoric on trans, whilst at the same time saying 'you mustn't discuss biological differnecs in gender' because that it's hateful! is astounding.

I think there might have been some validity to this general point a few years ago but the attacks on feminism have given folk a fresh appreciation for the value in protecting *all" speech (to a point) and the board is the stronger for it. There are still a fair number of posters with totalitarian instincts but far fewer and the discussion is generally more open and plural.

But this is a feminism board. There has been loads of discussion of real sex differences (which are few and broad) but it's not surprising short shrift is given to the M/TRA view of gender differences (which are many and narrow).

Personally I don't want schools teaching untruths, and would want them to stop teachers who were trying this.

That goes for MRA "men are oppressed" , TRA "born in the wrong body", anti-vaxxer, or flat earth bullshit.

I take it the free speech at all costs people are also upset by feminists trying to keep those teaching "born in the wrong body" out of schools?

He wasn't "teaching untruths". He made a video presenting one side of a debate. The debate was cancelled. It didn't go ahead. He put it on his personal youtube. End of. Or so you'd hope!

If my HoD told me to take down a blog post I'd written supporting JKR, would you support that, and think I should lose my job if I refused? (Because I do have such posts, and I definitely would refuse.) I've made educational resources presenting two opposing views on the trans/JK issue and got students to discuss them. If students figured out that I personally held one particular view out of those presented, should I be sacked for that? Why? If you think no, then why should this guy be sacked for his view? Just because you agree with my view but not with his? If you think we should both be sacked, how do you think the profession of teaching will carry on - only completely mindless mouthpieces of wokery would have a chance of staying in the job. Is that who we want as educators?

In reality, young people should be able to critically examine both or all sides of an issue, whether that's 'born in the wrong body' or 'how much of gender differences are biological' or literally anything else. You can't just say 'this is the right view' and punish those who disagree. That's extremely illiberal and leads only to tyranny. I don't want a tyranny even if some of the proscribed views are ones I share. If my views are correct, they'll win out through debate and criticism. If they're wrong, I'm happy for them to die out.

I don't need a tyranny to support my feminism. Why do you?

The main point he is making is that sex is real and not a social construct and that their are differences between the sexes.

He does. But then it all goes to shit when he claims courage and tenacity are 'masculine' traits.

That's not sex, that's gender. Like so many of these other berks he doesn't appear to know the difference. He deserves firing for that alone.

Good article here: www.spiked-online.com/2020/11/30/wokeness-has-made-a-mess-of-eton/

Wildswim he hasn't resigned from Eton - he's just resigned from organising the general studies course, which is an internal duty that is done by a different divinity teacher every few years.

The Spectator and the Telegraph have more articles today as well, it's fascinating to watch the media swinging between the two poles of this debate.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-etons-headmaster

www.spectator.co.uk/article/eton-was-right-to-sack-will-knowland

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/04/eton-had-no-choice-dismiss-will-knowland/

I should say, it's fascinating for us rubberneckers to watch. The atmosphere must be absolutely miserable for the staff, particularly the female staff, at the moment.

I seriously seriously doubt that the headmaster of Eton is a radical feminist Marxist. He doesn’t look the type.

lol

I suspect there is way way more involved than just this video. In any event, he was told to take it down and refused. If you’re a teacher, there are often clauses in your contract that state that you mustn’t bring the school into disrepute. You’re held to different standards to the rest of the public.

And I imagine that the sacking could be down to refusal to obey rules and instructions from the head. Unless there are other skeletons in the closet that haven't emerged yet.