La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

[ExLLLeader]

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

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Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

I don't have much to add apart from god this is all so moronic.

There is so much in the world we could be turning our attention towards to make a real difference. But no, here we are, having to defend the concept that breast feeding babies isn't something done by men, and that charity who is supposed to support mothers and babies breastfeeding should be focussed on that not on men who want to breast feed babies.

Utterly utterly moronic.

@GrumpyHoonMain

I volunteer for another breastfeeding charity and the amount of men using illegal hormone kits to breastfeed (or try to breastfeed) is higher than you think. Sometimes it’s as a result of misinformation or outright lying on the part of the person giving the drugs - these are vulnerable men (widowers / or whose partners have died, stressed gay parents, or fathers who are trying to support their partners etc) who are conned into believing they can nutritionally provide for their babies. Often health visiting services are patchy so we then help support these guys to find them support and provide formula before the kids come to harm.

Before I joined this charity I would have totally believed it would be a trans issue, but it’s not. It’s a practical one and if it helps identify kids at risk of malnutrition I’m all for it

All the more reason for breastfeeding charities to make it nice and clear.

Only lactating biological women are able to breastfeed babies

With a side note of

There has never been a credible medically verified instance of a biological male successfully breastfeeding a baby in the history of the universe. If you are male and trying to do this you will not succeed so please for the babies sake either hand the baby back to its mother or use formula

@Tootsweets23

I don't have much to add apart from god this is all so moronic.

There is so much in the world we could be turning our attention towards to make a real difference. But no, here we are, having to defend the concept that breast feeding babies isn't something done by men, and that charity who is supposed to support mothers and babies breastfeeding should be focussed on that not on men who want to breast feed babies.

Utterly utterly moronic.

Yes because of an international breastfeeding organisation seeking cultural capital by pretending that supporting transwomen who want to give it a go is within the scope of their mission 🤷🏼‍♀️ Maybe if these huge and influential bodies stopped being utterly idiotic, we wouldn't have to have these conversations.

TootSweets too fucking right.

Why are we even having to have these fucking conversations.

Well in this case because the fucking la leche league in the UK is putting out media to say they welcome TW who want to BF.

And then when a woman contacts then and says. Huh?

They say yes trans men need support.

And she says yeah. But you were taking about trans women.

They say. Erm. Dunno. Literally no idea. Didn't think about/ read what we wrote/ were told to write. Can't say that though. Um. Fuckity bye!

Most women on here do NOT want to be wasting their sodding time on this shite.

But a major BF charity says it. And posters on here via various means defend it.

1. Trans women when it comes to BF are exactly the same as women
2. You said women and men were equal! You brought in on yourselves
3. Men in general inducing lactation is not uncommon so the LLL are on the right track

So. Yeah. I don't want to talk about it. But we can't not, can we?

I agree but your lot were saying "gender is a social construct"

gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological reality. Sex and gender are different things. women saying 'my biology is not my destiny, just because I can have a baby doesn't mean I can't have a career' is in no way the same as saying 'my biology does not exist'.

A woman choosing to go back to work and so FF'ing her baby is in no way the same as a male bodied person taking drugs to induce some kind of fluid that they then feed the baby.

Only the terminally hard of thinking would not be able to understand these distinctions.

Still a feminist this bit

'There has never been a credible medically verified instance of a biological male successfully breastfeeding a baby in the history of the universe'

Just made me remember all the 'isn't it cute' stories about mammals BF babies of other mammal species. The animal doing the BF was always female though, unless I've totally got things very mixed up somewhere... (I haven't).

In short. When I was BF the girls I would have been more likely to successfully BF an orphan baby lamb, monkey or pig. Than my male partner would have been able to feed our human daughters.

Sorry for the weird optics.

We as a species drink cow, goat, sheep milk. Probably more. We make delicious cheeses out of it. Milk is fab stuff. Whatever the species, it's coming from females. And the exploitation around it is another question.

But still.

Milk is milk. Female mammals make it to feed their young. It's one of the definitions of what makes a mammal. Is that all up for a change now then or what.

Everything in LLL emails is on their website, i.e. it is possible for a transwoman to breastfeed. Out of interest, what would be the legal position if this advice led to a child being harmed, Iassume they must be hold some responsibility?

Actually I'm not convinced I could. Those animals are all quite big. And I'm no farming expert...

Take that as a nice bit of hyperbole or whatever.

I was going to say a baby orang utan. Not sure why I didn't. They are closest to us I think. So feel free to swap that in :)

'Out of interest, what would be the legal position if this advice led to a child being harmed, Iassume they must be hold some responsibility?'

Dodgy route to go down as it would harm women loads. The 'rules' for women when bf are strict and largely based on fuck all science.

And of course women do drink, smoke, take drugs while bf. I mean not literally while they are doing it YKWIM.

So the upshot would be the same as how in USA laws which were (sold as) being about recognising that crimes against pregnant women have an extra layer of bad if the foetus is affected. Have been used to harass/ arrest/ imprison pregnant women.

Seems like a bad idea.

In short. When I was BF the girls I would have been more likely to successfully BF an orphan baby lamb, monkey or pig. Than my male partner would have been able to feed our human daughters

I saw an article once where a woman breastfeed her sick cat. It had a full set of teeth!

WTAF?! I cannot.

The real question/ conversation is why.

Women BF infants because that is what our bodies do, as mammals. Produce milk. Before formula it was life or death, same as for other mammals.

The formula story is an excellent example of essentially. Men thinking they could do it better. Assuming it wasn't very complicated. Just milk only women how hard can it be. Oh and let's monetise it! And. Oh yeah. Cause the death of loads of babies around the world....

But yeah! They know best. Even as more and more evidence comes out about how amazing breast milk is, how complicated and reactive to mother baby etc etc... It's just women doing baby stuff I mean how hard can it be.

And similar with artificial wombs, the idea that with surrogacy using a donated egg the baby is nothing to do with the woman who grows and births it...

And on and on. These are all on the same theme. Which is one that is the root of all our problems tbh.

The issue that men have that they need women in order to procreate.

Everything stems from that. And it all ties together when you look across the piece. The need to control, dominate, take etc.

Thanks for your reply, I'd never really thought about the 'rules' around BF and the impact it has on women now. FWIW I literally did smoke and drink whilst BF my oldest children, things were so different back then.

Oh and where does the disgust come from?

Over the years there have been 'what a fucking freak' stories about women Bf older children. And yeah "woman fed her cat' shocker.
I remember on the Wright stuff years ago s woman let them have some milk for reasons I am not sure about because I didn't see the previous episode.
So Wright said 'we've left it out of the fridge (overnight) so it's like what the baby would have! (Or something similar).
And him and this other chap drank some and were URRGH IT'S REVOLTING!

I was...

Why are you doing this?
Are you surprised that milk left out in a hot environment overnight doesn't taste great?
A woman sent you some of her own milk, it's not a sensitive thing to do is it? Your milk tastes revolting! Poor baby...

I mean just why?

Is it another aspect of this sort of. Simultaneous fascination with and revulsion by, women's reproductive functions?

Sorry I'm going on. So many thoughts :)

Well exactly thingy.

The approach will be. Some women do xyz while BF so why can't I (a male) just do this.

It's fundamentally just. Well shitty. And comes from a really complex place but that is coming from.. well all the stuff I just wrote really :)

I read this a while ago, there is another article I'm searching for but in the meantime...

From the New Scientist (new science you say, yeah, you could call it that...), read to the end...

However, the woman’s breastmilk has not been assessed yet, so we don’t know if it has the same mix of components as in milk from new gestational mothers. This means the practice cannot yet be recommended, says Madeline Deutsch at the University of California, San Francisco. She says she can see the potential benefits of breastfeeding, but that the long-term impact of this milk on the baby – including on subtle measures like IQ – is unknown.
Deutsch herself is a transgender woman with a six-month-old baby who is currently being breastfed by Deutsch’s wife, who was the gestational mother. “I am very sad not to be able to breastfeed her and at the same time I did not consider doing this for the above reasons,” she says.
Nevertheless, Safer thinks there is likely to be demand for treatments like this. “This is very special,” he says. “It will be very important for the many transgender women who want to breastfeed but do not feel they have the opportunity to do so.”

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/#ixzz6f2Pil0Ik

Didn’t one of the big USA tech execs who is a transwoman breastfeed their infant (May have been an adopted baby)?

“It will be very important for the many transgender women who want to breastfeed but do not feel they have the opportunity to do so.”

The author had a baby with a woman...

Why dick around (no pun intended) with something as fundamental as this?

There's a woman who has given birth whose body is ready to bf. The baby knows her heartbeat voice etc etc. Why not leave it to her?

If she doesn't want to... Well that's fine as formula is available and safe to people like the author.

If it comes to it and this is a theme.

Do you know what? If breastfeeding advocacy organisations are going to support male born people to feed babies with their milk, can we just stop right now making women feel that unless they breastfeed their baby their child is going to be permanently disadvantaged? You can't have it both ways La Leche League. Either women's bodies lactate in response to gestating their baby and produce just the right hormones at the right time to support bonding, growth, brain development and emotional development, or all of that is more or less invalid when compared with a tranwomen's right to be validated via believing they too can lactate. In which case why don't we just tell women formula is perfectly acceptable from the outset.

This is the last article in my archive. From Katelyn Burns. The age of the 2 and 3 are interesting.

3 stories -

1 (aged 30, possibly the same person who is in a Daily Fail article which claims to be the first case) jokes about doubling up on breasts for their second child (at this point I can only think of the first child and what it means to them to see their dad breastfeed their sibling)

2 does it to bring 'breasts to full maturity' and says if you get into donating then you have to keep to a schedule and it's 'intense'

3 does it to see if it can be done and as a radiologist says there is no difference between their mammogram (who gives themselves a mammogram???) and a woman. Also says it was "super super neat"
And "I think it strongly reinforced my sense of womanhood. I had some great inner satisfaction in knowing that I could do what a cisgender woman could. It was very important to me, and I’m proud and happy that I did that.... The lactation thing for me just affirmed my womanhood, I think that was the most important part."

www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed

The lactation thing for me

Yep, as we wims say constantly don’t we?

I did think it was very telling that dr Deutsch did not embark on this for their own child because they felt it was unsafe.

But yeah, there is no difference at all between the milk according to some on this thread. Just because it can be done, should it be without doing some robust analysis first?

After all, it is only a child’s health involved isn’t it.

@Winesalot

The lactation thing for me

Yep, as we wims say constantly don’t we?

And of course that well-known phrase 'bring breasts to full maturity' that women and girls say all the time, when talking about breastfeeding.

Dear lord. One of the things that is really shocking to me is that they just can't see it. They can't see what the hell they sound like.

[quote OhHolyJesus]This is the last article in my archive. From Katelyn Burns. The age of the 2 and 3 are interesting.

3 stories -

1 (aged 30, possibly the same person who is in a Daily Fail article which claims to be the first case) jokes about doubling up on breasts for their second child (at this point I can only think of the first child and what it means to them to see their dad breastfeed their sibling)

2 does it to bring 'breasts to full maturity' and says if you get into donating then you have to keep to a schedule and it's 'intense'

3 does it to see if it can be done and as a radiologist says there is no difference between their mammogram (who gives themselves a mammogram???) and a woman. Also says it was "super super neat"
And "I think it strongly reinforced my sense of womanhood. I had some great inner satisfaction in knowing that I could do what a cisgender woman could. It was very important to me, and I’m proud and happy that I did that.... The lactation thing for me just affirmed my womanhood, I think that was the most important part."

www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed[/quote]
Again, it's all fucking ME!ME!ME!, not a word about the baby. How about affirming your 'womanhood' with the accompanying haemorrhoids, stretch marks, mastitis, incontinence, stitches, horrific birth injuries, sleepless nights, cluster feedings, ruined body/genitals, rectoceles, cystoceles, uterine prolapses, varicose veins, caesarian sections, episiotomy stitches and all sorts of other 'womanly' shit.
Oh that's right, you can't.
You just want the picture book bit with the content little baby nursing from its glowing mother.
Except its a confused little baby nursing from a biological man who is producing god knows what kind of drug induced secretion from his mans nipples.
It's the simple truth.

Still trying to find one last article which I remember very clearly had the Dr who dished out all the drugs commenting on the health of the baby at 6 months old.

My memory tells me it was from Australia but I could be wrong. The Dr was male and very proud of himself, the mother didn't want to breastfeed so we were told.

Will share if I find it but it stuck in my mind as it was the only time I have read anyone talk about the baby in terms of whether there were any ill effects and I thought 6 months was a bit early to tell.