La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

[ExLLLeader]

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

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Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

Datun

I deleted something very similar from my post. I honestly don’t know if the male posters who point their pointy fingers of shame ever contemplate just how little they actually know about a woman’s experience. I am glad they do post though, because it means lots more informative links, actual evidence, studies and people real life experiences are added to threads for readers to evaluate.

And to evaluate the motivations of such posters too.

@Winesalot

Datun

I deleted something very similar from my post. I honestly don’t know if the male posters who point their pointy fingers of shame ever contemplate just how little they actually know about a woman’s experience. I am glad they do post though, because it means lots more informative links, actual evidence, studies and people real life experiences are added to threads for readers to evaluate.

And to evaluate the motivations of such posters too.

Sometimes you don't even have to speculate or even comment. A lot of it speaks for itself.

But just why?

I mean from individuals who want to do this they have their own reasons

But why the facilitation. If it ain't broke don't fix it. And the human race is not struggling when it comes to reproduction. We're extremely successful.

So why is this being facilitated.

It all reminds me of Helena Bonham carter in fight club. Which is a great film by the way.

I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying at the beginning a bloke who is lost. Finds meaning in groups to support people with illnesses he doesn't have. So he's an imposter and getting something from the sharing, emotion, closeness of the groups.

Then Helena Bonham carter turns up doing the same. The last straw is when she turns up at 'his' Wednesday group, testicular cancer...

Might need to watch that again! Don't watch it with your children it's 18 or whatever for a reason.

Very pertinent though at the beginning at least.

@HecatesCats

Do you know what? If breastfeeding advocacy organisations are going to support male born people to feed babies with their milk, can we just stop right now making women feel that unless they breastfeed their baby their child is going to be permanently disadvantaged? You can't have it both ways La Leche League. Either women's bodies lactate in response to gestating their baby and produce just the right hormones at the right time to support bonding, growth, brain development and emotional development, or all of that is more or less invalid when compared with a tranwomen's right to be validated via believing they too can lactate. In which case why don't we just tell women formula is perfectly acceptable from the outset.

That's a good point. My own very brief dealing with La Leche League involved a very po- faced proselytiser. Reading the faq- the tone hasn't changed much but the irony of their criticism of formula whilst supporting the production of breastmilk created by artificial hormones and chemicals would be laughable if it weren't so depressing.

www.laleche.org.uk/supporting-a-breastfeeding-mother/

I have no experience with LLL but did NCT and NHS pre natal with DD1 (PFB lol) and I found found them both offputtingly biased. When I asked questions they didn't like it.

EG at the NCT BF session (men welcome only one came) I said after the woman had done the stuff and said any questions. I said (truthfully) that of my close friends who had had babies, they had all struggled with BF at the start. Pain, cracked nipples, mastitis.

The woman looked pissed off and said well any sort of problem is unusual.

Me being me said sure ok but all of my close friends have had something tricky, are you going to tell us what to do about these things which seem quite common.

She said. Something like. Well I think your friends have been very unfortunate because most women have no issues at all.

I mean. ??? With birth as well. Why the reluctance to give information?

So anyway. If LLL is even more like that then. I'm sure they do a lot of good but there's probably another side as well.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that some orgs that I'm sure started out well have become more about an ideology than the women, maybe? At least in some branches- it's all volunteers I'm sure some are lovely but it's going to be a mixed bag I suppose?

Maybe things need to start again because reading (other) threads on here the things on offer sometimes seem to be not really centred on women at all but a certain philosophy? And if they've lost sight of women then maybe LLL statements make more sense?

LLL that I knew of wouldn't have agreed to babies being fed hormone filled artificial puss.
They seemed to be against that.

There's no need for that type of description surely.

The conversation can be had easily enough without that.

But you have no experience of LLL. I do, and it was fine for me as an extended breastfeeder, but I saw and heard how they talked. I'm surprised that they would accept men who think they are women as breastfeeders. Because they have v little time for mums who are bottle feeders.

Whatever experience I have or not

I'm still deeply uncomfortable with that language. There's no need for it.

For what exactly? That men can't produce breastmilk so whatever comes out of a man's nipple is hormone induced gunk?

Or puss. It's not breastmilk. Formula milk is better tested and tried. I'm old now but I'd rather give a BABY milk that is proven not to do them harm.

Gross misuse of women's volunteer labour.

On the plus side, many LLL or former LLL counsellors have travelled up a snowy mountain in response.

I worked w/ a LLL approved org to donate my breastmilk. With DD2, I had loads more than she needed and had a freezer full. There were many parents who were wild to get breast milk for their child as an alternative to formula (I gave DD1 formula at times, I have nothing against formula).

I bring this up because the donation org sent me through a million steps to prove I wasn't taking medications of any kind, especially birth control pills due to them being artificial hormones. Now, I could have been on pills and bf my own DD, but LLL's sister org was VERY adamant I couldn't if I was to donate milk, so we know they care about safeguarding what is IN breastmilk.

LLL US, Canada and international have been on this train for a long time.

Im also becoming increasingly worried that the inclusion of trans men isnt making breastfeeding support harder. There is a push to refer to breastfeeding as body feeding. It’s not enought to include trans men but all language must remove the words women and breast incase they are trigged.
Anyone that disagrees is pilloried.

So, the idea is la leche support the parents to ensure the baby is fed optimally - breast milk directly from the mother.

La Leche League’s manual The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding suggests that unless it’s essential, ideally the introduction of a bottle is left until the baby is at least three to four weeks old, and breastfeeding well. Milk supply can adjust to the baby’s needs more easily if he is able to breastfeed directly, and the more practice the baby gets at the breast, the more quickly he will become skilled at breastfeeding.

Aka - to ensure milk supply do not introduce other feeding methods.

At first his mum and nursing will be at the centre of a baby’s world. The security of a baby’s bond with his mother is the basis for all other relationships. A breastfeeding mum generally feels an intense connection with her baby, both emotionally and physically, due to breastfeeding hormones and the practical need to stay close to nurse her baby.
This way, babies get what they need to thrive. A baby’s wants are his needs—he can’t wait like an adult can. By meeting his needs a mother gives him a secure attachment so he can develop into a confident child.

How does that work if la leche are supporting the other parent to breastfeed?

That's an interesting quote, BaseDrops. I note they use 'he' for the baby throughout. Do they alternate the use of 'he' and 'she' in different chapters, or is it all 'he'?

One of my tiny little acts of resistance is that wherever possible in writing of that sort I use 'he/she' or just 'she/her'. I don't see why we should all fall in with the delusion that man is the ideal form of human and women with their weirdly different bodies doing icky disgusting things are a second rate version who don't really count as human.

Just wanted to correct a few things. Male lactation is unusual but has been recorded throughout history. It can happen as a result of hormonal abnormalities, in response to medications, or from an infant suckling (as is the case for females). It's not a new thing but the involvement of drugs is. The milk has been tested and compared to milk from women and at the macro level it's equivalent (Kulski, J. K., Hartmann, P. E., & Gutteridge, D. H. (1981). Composition of breast fluid of a man with galactorrhea and hyperprolactinaemia. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism., 52(3), 581-582.). I don't believe however that anyone has tested milk from a male for hormone levels and it's that that would be concerning, particularly if a young infant was getting a lot of milk. Unlike Grumpyhoomain I have not seen or heard of a single case in my country of a male person purposefully seeking to induce lactation to breastfeed. I am pretty sure that there will have been some male trans people who have tried to (I am aware of transwomen having induced lactation using hormones- a particular recipe- for at least a decade) but I imagine they have gotten support online rather than from the breastfeeding support orgs. Widowers have contacted regarding accessing donor milk but not a single one regarding inducing lactation so I'd love to know more about this Grumpy if you can share.

Oh yes, and what I meant to say was that that passage makes me think that there must have been an older generation of LLL activists/counsellors/whatever they call themselves* who might not have thought of themselves as feminists but who were utterly focused on getting as many new mothers as possible to breastfeed and only breastfeed, and who were therefore incidentally totally committed to this as a female activity that would never involve males.

Now I suspect a younger generation is moving in who have, I would say unthinkingly, adopted the idea that inclusivity is all and so are pushing out this new message, but dots are not being joined. Could it be that there's a power struggle behind the scenes - or has that in fact already been lost?

*I never had anything to do with LLL myself but remember from my brief involvement with the NCT in the early 90s that there were many women who were breastfeeding purists and made some other women who couldn't breastfeed feel like failures. I was one of the lucky ones who was able to breastfeed without too much difficulty and I carried on with it until each of my children was 15 months. I did it because it was convenient not having to faff around with sterilising bottles and remembering to buy formula, I was convinced of the advantages for the baby, and I was aware that there were also some plusses for my own health. I'm glad I did it, but it wouldn't have been the end of the world if I'd had to go over to formula feeding. I have to say that - I was formula fed myself, and I've turned out all right (I think)!

@NiceGerbil

It's fascinating isn't it that women's feeding choices are scrutinised, critiqued, fought about, with FF Vs BF causing such s lot of angst, with laws having to be passed so women can bf in public without being told off. Dietary choices, no booze, no caffeine, no water, no air, blah blah blah...

Then a male rocks up and says yeah I want to bf and everyone says yay awesome take these off label hormones, totally you should do it instead of your female partner who gave birth, here's the skin to skin, come along to the groups!

I mean FFS.

An excellent point, and such a good example of the different standards which are applied to men and women. This is exactly what is happening with trans woman inclusion in various feminist circles I have experience with. People talk about it as inclusion but the reality is that the trans women are centered and tend to take over quite rapidly. Those who fight back are kicked out of the group for being transphobes.

The trans activists are excellent in creating Catch-22 situations in all sorts of ways and name-calling is one of them. But similar stuff happens with men who have never transitioned, too. Male feminists are adored even when they know a lot less about feminist theory and even when they have done less for the movement. It's important to be aware of this tendency and to fight it.

I work for a charity, I dealt with the Charity Commission recently, they blocked us for changing one word in our charity statement because it would deviate from our initial reason for being a charity. Bet if we were to all contact the CC regarding this issue they also would be told to go back to their original mission or explain their need to change it.

The abstract from Composition of breast fluid of a man with galactorrhea and hyperprolactinaemia

J K Kulski et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1981 Mar.

“It has been previously reported that men with and without known disease can produce milk, but no studies to date have demonstrated that their secretion contains milk constituents produced specifically by the breast. The present study shows the presence of lactose, alpha-lactalbumin, and lactoferrin in the breast secretion of a 27-yr-old male who had galactorrhea associated with hyperprolactinaemia. The concentrations of lactose, proteins, and electrolytes in the breast secretion of this man are within the range of colostrum and milk obtained from normal lactating women.”

That is interesting. And yet, as you say the samples have never been tested for chemical composition and the effects on an infant. To me, that is key to the argument In my opinion.

....and the motivation for attaching an infant to your nipple while publicly relishing in the delight of it being 10x more electrifying than your partner.

Bet if we were to all contact the CC regarding this issue they also would be told to go back to their original mission or explain their need to change it.

I believe the advice is to contact the charity directly to see if you/they can resolve the complaint first and then escalate to the Charity Commission, so next week, between work, childcare and life in general, and doing the fucking hate crime consultation or public standards consultation, I will follow the OP's lead and contact these fools at LLL with the points made through this thread.

I would also encourage others to do so. If LLL and other breastfeeding charities fail to meet their very basic mission statement and centre breastfeeding mothers then we have to ditch them and start again, like with the rape crisis centres the women built, like with the doulas and the period product companies.

We will just have to start again and have our fury at this madness fuel us.

S00LA, are the reasons for adoption similar over there? If a baby is removed from her mother at birth for child protection reasons, I can see it might be comforting and helpful if the adoptive mother attempts to breastfeed

No. In private adoptions in the US, the pregnant woman chooses to make an adoption plan. She contracts with the prospective adopters in a private arrangement ( or her own or through a private agency ) similar to surrogacy. The mother chooses the new parents , usually they are at the hospital during the birth and sometimes even in the delivery room.

Like surrogacy, people pay A LOT of money for this and of course a big cut is taken by the agency. Adopters do it because they want a newborn ( like most non adopters ) and the wait time is less. Birth mums do it because they can’t raise the baby right now, they get to choose the new parents ( usually rich and educated couples ) and they are more likely to get an open adoption.

In the Uk it’s very rare that new babies are placed voluntarily for adoption. As you say, it’s cor child protection reasons.

Babies are only removed at birth after a court order and it’s usually because the mother has had several other children taken away from her because of abuse and neglect. Sometimes other babies / children will have died.

Most of these women have addictions and mental health problems / learning difficulties and are affected by domestic violence. So called complex needs.

The babies will go into foster care and are often not adopted for 9-12 months because of legal issues. Some agencies place these babies with couples who wish to adopt, but this is very risky for the couple as the baby could be taken away at any time. Often an extended family member comes forward to take the baby. Imagine what that’s like if you have bonded ( and baby with you ) because you thought you were going to adopt ?

So it’s all very tricky. These babies can’t be BF because they are fostered and also because they could be removed by social services at any time with just a few hours notice.

I get your point that Bf could be comforting for a newborn baby that has been taken from its mother. But the trauma is the same for the baby regardless of the reasons for the adoption.

If birth mum is on drugs then baby is often born addicted and will have to go to PICU to detox. And / or the babies are often premature / low birth weight / other health issues, so they can be in hospital for a while.

Even tobacco smoking can lead to underweight premature babies. Mums are often heavy drinkers too.

These babies come into the world with so many challenges. It’s heartbreaking.

When I think about these mums and babies , their needs and the likely course of their lives .....it’s a millions miles away from privileged men saying they get off on pretending to BF because it’s sexy and makes them feel female.

Just catching up; there's been a very recent study on bm in longer term bf mothers to assess suitability for milk donation.

The outcome was that there was very little difference and they recommended that milk could be donated certainly up to 2 years pp.

However this is a completely different thing to men trying to make milk with synthetic hormones for a fetish.

However this is a completely different thing to men trying to make milk with synthetic hormones for a fetish. or even for entirely suitable purposes. It is all about that drug cocktail and what gets passed on to infants. And what the infant miss out on in those first few weeks when a mother’s hormones regulate the composition of the milk.