La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

[ExLLLeader]

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

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Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

Yes Frazzled13 that is correct.

Just to say i contacted LLL about the medication I was going to have to take and what it may mean wrt breastfeeding. They seem to have medical people they can consult with/call on. I don't know if they are volunteers. It is a while ago. So, they came back to me later that it was not advisable.

However, I really think that if they have a policy of actively supporting transwomen in some expressing/feeding effort knowing that drug cocktails may be given to the baby) then @LLL would be complicit in anything the baby was exposed to.

It's not about trans men.

It's about trans women. As per the quote from LLL.

no one here is bothered about trans men or non binary females going to a bf support thing after having a baby. They are female. From the POV of bf, which is the whole purpose of LLL, they are the same as all the others there.

Males with surgically created breasts do not have female breasts.

Males on cross sex hormones do develop some breast changes without surgery. However, in an excellent post up thread, it has been pointed out that further changes to females breasts occur during pregnancy to facilitate breast feeding in a way to sustain an infant with nutrition.

@MsSafina

I don't need to think harder. You are now saying biology counts when before you said it doesn't.

Nope. That's not what anyone has been saying. Biology is the root of women's sex based oppression, gender is a set of stereotypes imposed upon women and men. Think harder.

Wow. I'm just horrified on so many levels but mainly because this is not at all focused on the baby; complete focus on the male adult.

@NiceGerbil

Also trans woman doesn't necessarily mean hormones surgery etc.

If a male person says they're a woman then they are from that point. TWAW. at that moment their breast tissue to transforms to be the exact same as a female with fully functional breasts.

I mean it's a miracle tbh.

Hallelujah! Didn't you know male people can literally become female? Its all over a popular video platform. Transwomen experience 'periods', monthly cycles, hot flushes, headaches, morning sickness (??) and cramping. Yeah, cramping, every month. Cramping in their .........erm...........your guess is as good as mine. It's like every stereotype has been read about and compressed into some fanciful idea of womanhood and what it is to be a woman. It must be a very strong desire indeed if it can produce such physical manifestations, even in a body organ that does not exist in a biological man.

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

"I met my wife two and a half years and 2,700 miles ago in Virginia. We raced from "let's keep this casual" to "let's get married, have kids, and move to Seattle" in about 10 months. At almost 40, we knew we couldn't wait too long (also, clearly, waiting wasn't our strong suit), so within a year of landing in Seattle, my wife was pregnant with our first child.

The baby didn't come on schedule, so we induced two days later, followed by a grueling three-day labor that ended in an emergency C-section.

. . . when they pulled my daughter free of my wife's body, I was the first one to hold her. I took her back to the hospital room and did what any mom would do —I put her on my bare chest and let her find my breast.

(And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge.)"

Moving quickly far from the wife's home is a very common tactic, seen often in Transwidow's stories. Then the escalating demands and abuse when she is most vulnerable. It's horrifying and should not be enabled by women's support groups.

@NiceGerbil

It's not about trans men.

It's about trans women. As per the quote from LLL.

no one here is bothered about trans men or non binary females going to a bf support thing after having a baby. They are female. From the POV of bf, which is the whole purpose of LLL, they are the same as all the others there.

Except if they expect a change of language and breastfeeding, mother, breast and woman are no longer permitted, that would be annoying.

Yes they are welcome if they have the humility to acknowledge that they are in a minority and not demand that the majority completely submit to their way of seeing the world. We can respect them without having to share their beliefs or apply their language to ourselves.

@BitMuch

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

"I met my wife two and a half years and 2,700 miles ago in Virginia. We raced from "let's keep this casual" to "let's get married, have kids, and move to Seattle" in about 10 months. At almost 40, we knew we couldn't wait too long (also, clearly, waiting wasn't our strong suit), so within a year of landing in Seattle, my wife was pregnant with our first child.

The baby didn't come on schedule, so we induced two days later, followed by a grueling three-day labor that ended in an emergency C-section.

. . . when they pulled my daughter free of my wife's body, I was the first one to hold her. I took her back to the hospital room and did what any mom would do —I put her on my bare chest and let her find my breast.

(And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge.)"

Moving quickly far from the wife's home is a very common tactic, seen often in Transwidow's stories. Then the escalating demands and abuse when she is most vulnerable. It's horrifying and should not be enabled by women's support groups.

The baby didn't come on schedule, so we induced two days later, followed by a grueling three-day labor that ended in an emergency C-section. By that point, I'd gone from producing an ounce of milk to only a cc or two, and my partner's milk was going to take days to come in. The lactation consultants in the hospital were uninformed and singularly uncooperative. We had to start supplementing with formula. A few weeks later, we both gave up on breastfeeding and switched to formula completely.

Eh? Induction, C-sections, all very common. So why when the 'sperm donor's' attempt to lactate failed, did they stop? There doesn't appear to be any specific reason, at all.

The lactation consultants in the hospital were uninformed and singularly uncooperative.

Uncooperative??

I think I've just answered my own question.

I accept the pain of people who have been born in the wrong body and want to transition - whether male or female. As I said, my son has a trans male as a friend. I do not accept that single sex spaces have to be made into unisex spaces. It doesn't make sense. Most women would not object to a transwoman coming into their space. But the logic is: all spaces must be made unisex to satisfy the normal 🤔

Also 'lactation consultant'? Does this person mean the nurses???

'Uncooperative' nurses?

Every time I read it, it gets worse.

MsSafina we're not talking about toilets. Let's move on, shall we. Any attempt to suggest that transwomen should breastfeed babies born to women is contrary to La leche league's mission statement which is to promote breastfeeding for the ' 'healthy development of baby and mother', since there is no evidence whatsoever that chemically induced lactation in male born people is good for babies. It always comes back to this for me, who is benefiting from this change in approach?

Cui bono is always the right question, hecates.

And the answer here is “definitely not nursing mothers and babies”, and that really should be as much as LLL need to know to say “well, what you need isn’t part of our core purpose, so we wish you well, but we won’t be able to help”.

and my partner's milk was going to take days to come in.

So narcissistic.

Preaching to the converted on this thread but obviously Colostrum is there pre birth and if baby had been allowed to suckle there would have been hourly and daily gradual increasing of milk till 6 weeks.

That's roughly when the breasts hit their max production. Too much messing with supplementation without pumping can reduce supply.

Those consultations were trying to do their job by the sounds of it. The fetish ruined that child's access to it's mother's milk.

Dr Jack Newman used to have a section on his website about transwomen feeding. I don't know if it's still there though.

I agree but your lot were saying "gender is a social construct" while my lot were saying we should nurture and look after our babies and stay at home while they're babies. No wonder that this lot are saying women are not necessary to look after babies. Indeed it appears to be true. You are all officially redundant.

(He's Canadian and otherwise and excellent lactation dr.)

And indeed, the career minded woman would have thought nothing of going back to work and letting a nanny give a bottle to the infant as well as the other care. So let's not be too precious if someone else thinks they can give the teat.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Do women who have adopted a baby induce breast feeding? I have never heard about this."

I have heard of it. There was a Woman's hour interview with a woman who had done it.

This is extremely rare in Uk adoptions. For several reasons

1.legal - babies are not placed for adoption at birth as they are in the US where it’s often a private adoption ( Private adoptions are illegal in the Uk). When babies are placed as new borns they are with foster carers, who of course will not Bf the child, even if they happened to be lactating and feeding their own toddler or child.

This is the case even it’s “ concurrent planning “ - when the family hope to go to adopt the child. They are still fosters carers and have to follow all the rules.

1. Timescale - The legal adoption won’t go through for months or sometimes even years. It’s only when that is granted that a mother could decide to Bf the child.

Obvously you can’t start inducing lactation and teaching a baby to Bf when it’s 10 or 12 months old, as they will have learned how to suck on an artificial teat.

1. Induced lactation works best when a woman has BF before or at least if she has been PG. Most ( not all ) women who adopt a baby in the UK will not have Bf before. If you have several biological children, most agencies will not place a NT child under 2 with you.

1. Time - there are often delays when a child is supposed to be placed - usually weeks and often months. Inducing lactation takes a huge amount of time and preparation, as well as the off label use of drugs which most GPS won’t support.

1. Difficulty - it’s really really hard for most women to make anything more than a few drops unless they have been Pg and Bf relatively recently . There’s drugs and hours of pumping and supplemental feeding . That’s on top of caring for a distressed and traumatised baby / toddler.

It’s just too much extra stress for everyone. Why would you put yourself and baby through it ?

I should say it’s more common in the USA when babies are adopted from birth ( literally taken from the mother’s arms on the delivery table ) and adoptive mothers are more likely to BF recently or currently.

@MsSafina

And indeed, the career minded woman would have thought nothing of going back to work and letting a nanny give a bottle to the infant as well as the other care. So let's not be too precious if someone else thinks they can give the teat.

Why should transwomen be allowed to breastfeed babies? Why should La Leche League which promotes breastfeeding for the health and development of women and babies embrace transwomen breastfeeding? Why do transwomen want to breastfeed babies that women have given birth to? Why would women allow them to do that?

Oh to have a hosepipe filled with FORMULA. Le Leche league all lined up and I'd pressure wash them all with it.

That case history linked to is as full of holes as a string vest.

Men cannot produce breast milk and they cannot breastfeed.

Not good to indulge these fantasies, which is what LLL is doing.