La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

[ExLLLeader]

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

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Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

Males, can already. They can bottle feed, sing to, rock, bathe etc the baby.

What they cant do is breastfeed safely without potentially damaging the child and the mother. Why would a male want to do that?

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

Of course adults can’t bond with a child any way they wish ! Some men sexually assault and rape babies and children. Other parents neglect and abuse their children in other ways.

It’s not about the rights of the adult to do anything they want, as long as they say it’s about bonding ( or any other reason ). It’s about the rights of the child.

Feeding a child ( by Bf or bottle feeding ) is not primarily about giving the adult an “ amazing activity “. It’s about the needs of the child.

Let me say it again - the needs of the child.

Male parents can bond with their child via skin on skin, baby carrying, taking an active role in their daily routine - bath time, bed time, reading stories and feeding via a bottle if mum wants a break and has expressed milk or the baby is being fed formula. Since males don't produce milk naturally without chemical intervention when the baby is born, why would they breastfeed the baby? Why would a male want to breastfeed a baby?

Why would a male want to breastfeed a baby?

Well I think we all know the answer to why a biological man might want to Bf a baby. We just can’t say it.

Of course a biological woman who identifies as a man and has given birth is totally different . Because it’s about biology.

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

Good lord. Have you perhaps not read this thread?

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

Like this male describing (what he thinks is) breastfeeding you mean?

(And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge.)

Imagine the most electric thing a partner has ever done to you, then multiply it by 10.

Like that?

And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge

In other words, don't question my sexual fetish and exclude me. Just accept. No, no questions allowed. Acceptance without exception.

A useful quote to point out in terms of safeguarding to LLL.

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

You obviously have not read the transwomen bf accounts. I have read at least three and they all talk about their arousal while breastfeeding.

Maybe you should do some research from their personally written articles. Or do you think deriving sexual pleasure from a child is ok?

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

Welcome to MN. As far as I'm concerned the most amazing activity to do with a hungry child is feed them with something known to be good for them, eg. their mothers breast milk or formula. Not something untested and possibly containing unhealthy levels of synthetic hormones.

We should not be undermining safeguarding in the name of inclusivity, and yet that is what we see happening again and again. LLL now have a policy to offer support to male born people who want to breastfeed a baby, they will allow them to attend their meetings with women who are breastfeeding. We know why certain males want to breastfeed, why are LLL happy to open the door to them? This is not best for babies or for mothers. Such a lack of scrutiny going on here.

What's the LLL's view on penisfeeding? Or is that not a thing yet? Maybe that's 2021.

(Is there any point at which they'd say no?)

Probably not Necessary though they will alway claim 'robust safeguarding' and perform bigoteering to anyone who asks questions.

It's just NSPCC all over again. A quiet and under-the-door change in definitions and/or policy whilst presenting concerns and honest faces to the public and anyone who goes to them for help.

The charity commission needs more teeth to deal with this shite. I get their emails and it's always about financial breeches not moral or ethical issues.

It only takes one man rocking up with a newborn and a nursing bra to a breastfeeding cafe to raise eyebrows but the women will avert their gaze, feel objectified if stared at in a supposedly all-female space and probably not report it and not go back.

It only takes one man rocking up with a newborn and a nursing bra to a breastfeeding cafe to raise eyebrows but the women will avert their gaze, feel objectified if stared at in a supposedly all-female space and probably not report it and not go back.

It would make sense for LLL to monitor attendance figures at sessions once they implement this happy-clappy inclusion of males policy. I suspect the data would be highly informative about the acceptability of mixed sex sessions to their service users.

The NHS doesn't seem hugely enthusiastic about domperidone for that use.

Hmm. I wonder if this is very recent?

Just I was on a shit ton of the stuff with DD. And this was only 8 years back now.

Also the 'lactation consultant' that was picked up on earlier in the thread? I was referred to someone with that very job title, who was the one who wrte to my GP requesting my handful of pills per day to swallow to try and bring in supply. Had never heard of it before, so yeah hats also a thing in the UK seemingly.

Assumed that was 'usual' meds actually, seems not? I was advised against ANY other drugs at all though, as I said earlier in the thread, even paracetamol at one stage. I was also unable to continue any of my usual medication while trying to relactate..

The Daily Mail article says it's a policy that's been in place since 2017, according to Helen Lloyd the U.K. Chair.

LLL GB don't record by gender identity. Good, it's not relevant is it, though the trans men might be pissed off about that.

Do they record anything by sex? In the past you wouldn't need to as everyone going would be female. If their argument is that partners of breastfeeding mothers need support then they should record members by sex and support that group in their needs which is obviously practically very different from the one doing the breastfeeding (and arguably it's not within their mission statement anyway as they don't mention this group).

Mind, I distinctly remember being told that domperidone was being used 'off label', but also that it was a regular occurance and was safe, just that it was hard to trial medications in pregnant women/breastfeeding women/kids, so many many meds that help those people are technically 'off label'. Not sure if thats actually how it works, but thats what I was told by my..lactation consultant.

I don't find talk of the amount of meds required to enable a male to produce something from the nipple, offensive. Despite needing meds to get any supply at all seemingly..I was pumping nonestop and literally mm. 2 days after starting that medication, I shot up to 5oz. Stalled there mind, but yeah..100x or more quickly.

NC incase outing, but I do know of an LLL group / leader who gave wonderful support to a mother (herself by then a peer supporter) who's child was born with a condition that meant they couldn't bf at all. She had to pump and did so into his toddlerdom and was supported with domperidone. It's not a common drug but is used in some circumstances.

I'm so sorry to read of pp's negative experiences; this has not been my own experience at all of lll support at all, and I know of women who have been supported who do mix feed, use nipple shields etc.

Their point of view is very much around absolutely brilliant, regular support of the mother with positioning and helping her to get help from partners etc to be able to establish and continue bfing. It can take a phenomenal amount of time. And is the reason why many cultures have a 40 day post partum period where the mother stays in recovering and feeding and is looked after relatives. Here we have to be up and about going to yoga, baby classes and shopping within days.

This is obviously extremely challenging to do well in all honesty, and access to good face to face support been worsened by the pandemic.

I had to have a supporter sit with me on a sofa (push me back) and show me how to best position myself to feed, actually quite technical - and that was my second who was entirely different to my first.

It's fascinating hearing people's different experiences of trying to get breastfeeding established in the early days. I'm so sorry for those who wanted to do it and didn't get the help they needed. I was incredibly lucky. I had an emergency c-section and dimly remember thinking in passing as I was wheeled to the operating theatre that this would probably mean I couldn't breastfeed. However, on my arrival in the post-natal ward in the early hours, the student midwife on duty said to me 'Your notes say you're keen to breastfeed, so let's get your baby latched on' and that was the start of several days of stellar support, first from the midwives on the ward (not all, but enough) and then from the community midwives. It still wasn't easy, but it worked out in the end. This was the early 1990s, btw.

It does make me wonder about the time before formula. Rich women could always turn to a wet nurse, but what did poor women do if the baby's mother was unable to feed her? No wonder infant mortality was so high, and what a godsend it is to know that if a mother can't feed the baby there are safe alternatives.

It does make me wonder about the time before formula. Rich women could always turn to a wet nurse, but what did poor women do if the baby's mother was unable to feed her? No wonder infant mortality was so high, and what a godsend it is to know that if a mother can't feed the baby there are safe alternatives.

If you believe some of the more evangelical BF proponents, it was some sort of pre-lapsarian paradise where all women's breasts gushed with milk (and probably honey too).

In reality, I think the catch all "failure to thrive" on infant death certificates was often down to this - plus maybe relatives (sisters, mothers) wet nursing. Plus a lot of very early weaning. But a high infant mortality rate.

Hospital convinced me DD was starving, and that it was 'very important to get her belly full' as she had been quite a difficult birth, had to have forceps, went on for ages, almost CC apparently as her heart was dropping, had to be on heat mat and slight jaundice. They got one of their cow and gate bottles, gave her it, and just continued, giving me them every now and again and standing staring

Was a month until I felt up to searching about it all and found out what they said was utter bollocks. But had missed my chance by then. She screamed at my breast, seemed terrified but that was prob as she could tell I was anxious looking back. Long story short, weeks of pumping, begging for appointments, domperidone, and 5oz per day total, I gave her one bottle of my milk a day, rest formula and hated myself and the hospital.

Luckily, with DS, birth was easy (besides massive bleed but that was in shower after) and he wriggled around when I was holding him and found my tit himself and latched perfectly. I was shocked at how easy, and MW helpfully commented 'its because he is male, they have a homing instinct when it comes to boobs'.

I don't get offended when people question the amounts of meds a male would need to produce fluid (I cannot call it milk). I kind of get why some women might find it upsetting though.

I do find it offensive that a male who want to 'breastfeed' would seemingly get more support than I got. Though that may just be spiteful of me..

I find it extremely offensive that LLL is spending ANY time on this nonsense, when they are supposed to be about what is best for the baby, not a males feelings and/or fetish.

Rd infant mortality, it depends on when and who. It's not just feeding.

Many cultures allowed babies to die for many reasons. Eg early humans, the Romans, especially if female. The Egyptians were very pro babies though. Nutrition of the mother in pregnancy is also important. Babies these days are monitored carefully and we have more medical knowledge to help avoid common infections and other issues eg low vit k or hypothyroidism.

Various points in the past in the U.K. have been v bad for women and so bad for any babies, especially if birthed out of wedlock. Eg Victorian times when capitalism really got going.

The politics of bf is an interesting book.

I've also always found this article fascinating in terms of how a whole culture views and approaches bf. www.naturalchild.org/articles/guest/ruth_kamnitzer.html

Good points, Mammoth. I should read up on this.

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

I think very possibly that simply 'bonding' may not quite be the attraction for the males who wish to get attention of orgs like LLL in order to engage in or perform in some way 'the womanly art of breastfeeding'.

Well, maybe not bonding which is appropriate in the parental/child relationship anyhow.

The experience of a male who has written about putting a baby to their nipple, has described himself as 'getting off' on it.

@TiredMomWithAChild

All males should have the right to bond with their children in any way they wish. I believe that breastfeeding is the most amazing activity you can do with your hungry child.

U what? No, no parent has the right to bond with their children ‘in any way they wish’ you weirdo. If you are a man and you want your baby to suckle your nipple, you are sick in the head. Breastfeeding is to provide the baby with food, not some validation exercise or some disgusting way to derive sexual pleasure. Find some other fucking way to ‘bond’.

There are some seriously odd people in the world.