La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

[ExLLLeader]

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

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Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

I thought lll was to promote breast feeding

Wasn't there concern about soya formua and lots of soya products on boys at one point? Something to do with it mimicking oestrogen or something?So how come there's concern over that but not any testosterone or oestrogen present in males attempting to breastfeeding?

@Winesalot

The abstract from Composition of breast fluid of a man with galactorrhea and hyperprolactinaemia

J K Kulski et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1981 Mar.

“It has been previously reported that men with and without known disease can produce milk, but no studies to date have demonstrated that their secretion contains milk constituents produced specifically by the breast. The present study shows the presence of lactose, alpha-lactalbumin, and lactoferrin in the breast secretion of a 27-yr-old male who had galactorrhea associated with hyperprolactinaemia. The concentrations of lactose, proteins, and electrolytes in the breast secretion of this man are within the range of colostrum and milk obtained from normal lactating women.”

That is interesting. And yet, as you say the samples have never been tested for chemical composition and the effects on an infant. To me, that is key to the argument In my opinion.

....and the motivation for attaching an infant to your nipple while publicly relishing in the delight of it being 10x more electrifying than your partner.

My point in posting was to correct some misapprehensions. 1) Males have breast tissue capable of producing milk 2) they can lactate in response to a suckling infant just as women who have not been pregnant can, the mechanisms are the same 3) it is milk that they produce and in macrocomposition it appears the same as milk produced by females.

The areas of concern that people have raised in relation to hormone levels in milk from a male person and motivations for breastfeeding for transwomen are the concerns that have a basis I think. Arguments based on misinformation are unhelpful.

What about concerns about why a transwoman would want to breastfeed a baby?

Or why is money in research to work our a way of trying to do this?

And despite many attempts in this thread to dig up studies showing rare cases where men has secreted a liquid from their nipples, what I said still stands

For all of human history mothers have breastfeed babies

There has never been a credible medical study of a single biological male successfully breastfeeding a baby

So on one side we have something billions of women have done and some need support with so that’s where organisations like LLL have traditionally helped. On the other side we have the fiction that built up, by men who want to and women lying ‘to be kind’, that it’s possible for biological males to bf even though there’s no medical proof that even one has ever successfully done it. And that’s resulting in organisations like LLL allowing men into groups that women unknowingly have provided intimate information including photos in the assurance that the group was female only.

Have I missed anything?

What about concerns about why a transwoman would want to breastfeed a baby?

Its a bit like that other acronym we can't use. We know. And we know everyone knows. But its all gone too far now so we have to pretend we don't know or admit feminists were right. Cant have that can we...

I'm going to keep coming back to this. La Leche League has a specific purpose. It is to promote breastfeeding for the benefits it brings to baby and mother. I make no judgement in this thread about breastfeeding specifically, but the mission of this organisation (see previous posts) is specific. It also cites the following points in its philosophy:

Mothering through breastfeeding is the most natural and effective way of understanding and satisfying the needs of the baby.

Alert and active participation by the mother in childbirth is a help in getting breastfeeding off to a good start.

Mother and baby need to be together early and often to establish a satisfying breastfeeding relationship and reliable milk production.

In the early years, the baby has an intense need to be with his mother which is as basic as his need for food.

Ideally the breastfeeding relationship will continue until the baby outgrows the need.

These are not compliant with extending LLL's scope to supporting transwomen to breastfeed. How would that benefit the baby in this context. As Michelle points out, some organisations need to be exclusive to fulfil their purpose.

@HecatesCats

I'm going to keep coming back to this. La Leche League has a specific purpose. It is to promote breastfeeding for the benefits it brings to baby and mother. I make no judgement in this thread about breastfeeding specifically, but the mission of this organisation (see previous posts) is specific. It also cites the following points in its philosophy:

Mothering through breastfeeding is the most natural and effective way of understanding and satisfying the needs of the baby.

Alert and active participation by the mother in childbirth is a help in getting breastfeeding off to a good start.

Mother and baby need to be together early and often to establish a satisfying breastfeeding relationship and reliable milk production.

In the early years, the baby has an intense need to be with his mother which is as basic as his need for food.

Ideally the breastfeeding relationship will continue until the baby outgrows the need.

These are not compliant with extending LLL's scope to supporting transwomen to breastfeed. How would that benefit the baby in this context. As Michelle points out, some organisations need to be exclusive to fulfil their purpose.

Great points, this would make a great basis for complaint to LLL with follow up to The Charity Commission.

As a PP said we need several of us to make those complaints to try and get sanity restored to an organisation.

I agree Hecate, there is room enough for a variety of organisations. Why is it wrong to adhere to those statements and remain about mother to mother breastfeeding support?

Let other communities set up their own groups that suit their needs more closely. Surely we have not lost the rights of association now? I mean in the the sense that it is socially unacceptable, it is not quite illegal yet.

Groups really don’t have to try to be all things to all people. It is not achievable nor is it desirable.

LLL suited a particular group as it was, as did NCT and ABM and Breastfeeding network. Surely it is fine for all these to exist and work together when it suits them but they provide a slightly different take on breastfeeding and mothering to suit different tastes and approaches. Isn’t that great? Now are all to be homogenised and serve the “new religion” instead of the various needs of women as they become mothers? Do check out the thread on the new religion by the way!

Just like with Girlguiding I am willing to bet that there are plenty in these organisations who are trying to resist from within either because they are old school and value the old ways or simply because they see the harms inherent in some of these new ideologies.

I want to stand up for @FagashJackie's choice of language.

As numerous posters (the ones with a grasp on actual human biology rather than fantasy) have pointed out, spontaneous discharge from the nipple in male humans is a sign of disease. There have been no documented cases of human males successfully feeding a baby, and the only instances of them attempting to do so have been heavily dependent on huge amounts of artifical hormones alien to the male body.

So "pus" doesn't seem like such a bad description to me, especially when one thinks of the potential health impacts of feeding a baby on that highly artificial discharge.

Remember that LLL and its allies are the sort of supporters of breastfeeding some of whom describe formula (which undergoes huge amounts of research to get it as nutritionally adequate as possible, and which in this country is subject to very tight controls as to its composition) as "poison." Yet here they are supporting the rights of biological males to have their delusions pandered to over and above the needs of babies to have nutritionally safe food. "Pus" seems quite a mild descriptor.

And yes, I am fucking bitter - because I couldn't breast feed for physiological reasons (both on my side and my baby's), and attitudes like LLL's contributed to this failure spiralling into PND. Yet (to repeat) here are LLL throwing all that to the side in order to support delusional males, despite the detrimental impacts on babies, and the psychological warfare against women that this constitutes.

@StillAFeminist

And despite many attempts in this thread to dig up studies showing rare cases where men has secreted a liquid from their nipples, what I said still stands

For all of human history mothers have breastfeed babies

There has never been a credible medical study of a single biological male successfully breastfeeding a baby

So on one side we have something billions of women have done and some need support with so that’s where organisations like LLL have traditionally helped. On the other side we have the fiction that built up, by men who want to and women lying ‘to be kind’, that it’s possible for biological males to bf even though there’s no medical proof that even one has ever successfully done it. And that’s resulting in organisations like LLL allowing men into groups that women unknowingly have provided intimate information including photos in the assurance that the group was female only.

Have I missed anything?

You are correct, women breastfeed but it is also the case that males have breast tissue and that their breasts will make milk given the right conditions. Just how much milk males are likely to make is the question we don't have the answer to. And by the way, the questioning of males making milk etc, even to the words being used are very similar to what was written in the scientific literature in the mid 20th century when relactation by women was rediscovered. ie, "there's this strange thing, women who have not recently given birth are putting babies to their breasts and there's this white stuff coming out of the nipples but we're not really sure what it is." It was milk and the white stuff coming out of the nipples of males who induce lactation is also milk. It's basic human physiology. Nothing remarkable, just unusual.

None of this however, says anything about the other questions you raise. As I suggested previously, the strongest arguments are ones that do not contain information that is false.

You haven't answered the question about why Transwomen want to breastfeed Anna? Why should an organisation like LLL accommodate them within their service given its purpose? I've laid it out several times. What have your posts got to do with LLL?

If men can't breastfeed, why on earth would any man try and squeeze drips of liquid from his nipples in a breastfeeding context?

What's it for? What's the point?

You are correct, women breastfeed but it is also the case that males have breast tissue and that their breasts will make milk given the right conditions.
But...even if that were true, who cares?
Women's bodies are designed to feed babies, men's are not. Why can't women be allowed to have something that is just theirs??
I don't know LaLecheLeaugue at all, but the idea of a charity to help women breastfeed saying men are welcome makes me feel queasy. I didn't really want men in the room when I was learning to breastfeed,let alone sat there trying to do it with me!
Ultimately if a man wants to have a baby suckling on his nipple, there is no good reason for that. You can't use a baby to validate yourself, it's sick. The world has lost the plot, seriously.

Men do not spontaneously lactate such that they can feed babies. They are not needed to do this. I see no reason for anyone to put time or resources into pandering to men who have this stupid desire.

This thread is a microcosm of everything that feminists warned would happen and perfectly illustrates how both women and children's rights and needs are immediately subservient to the demands of men exhibiting what we are not allowed to speak about.

I hope there are screenshots - especially of all the informed intelligent posts by women who know all about breastfeeding versus the insistent demands for males to be centred rather than the needs and rights of newborn babies ffs.

Channeling the Simpson’s - ‘won’t someone please think of the babies?‘

I’m generally fairly liberal, but as a mum of a currently breastfeeding baby, this is just wrong. LLL should focus on what is best for babies. And given I can’t take most medicines or even use a lot of toiletries I case I pass ingredients onto my baby, it beggars belief that they endorse pumping someone full of medication so they can t try to produce milk. Horrible.

I think it’s a fairly simple argument. La Leche state repeatedly that successful breastfeeding is achieved by no supplemental feeding and frequent and close contact between mother and baby.

Supporting the parent who did not give birth to breastfeed is going to undermine the success of the mother to breastfeed.

Just how much milk males are likely to make is the question we don't have the answer to

I think we do have the answer to that, and it is that given that no male has ever been documented as having successfully breast fed a baby, then males do not produce enough milk to breastfeed a baby. I don’t see the benefit of pretending we don’t know what we’ve known for millennia, which is that babies are breastfed by women, in general (but not always) the woman who have given birth to them.

@HecatesCats

You haven't answered the question about why Transwomen want to breastfeed Anna? Why should an organisation like LLL accommodate them within their service given its purpose? I've laid it out several times. What have your posts got to do with LLL?

I have lots of questions abut that Hecates and the cases I have read of transwomen breastfeeding make me very uncomfortable. LLL have had many strange policies over years and they are very American so it's not surprising really. My comments are providing information so that people do not undermine what they say on this subject by including information that is incorrect.

Why do they make you feel uncomfortable Anna?

@BaseDrops

I think it’s a fairly simple argument. La Leche state repeatedly that successful breastfeeding is achieved by no supplemental feeding and frequent and close contact between mother and baby.

Supporting the parent who did not give birth to breastfeed is going to undermine the success of the mother to breastfeed.

Yep this.

What's it for? What's the point?

Quite.