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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Gay men's magazine bullied into grovelling

896 replies

aliasundercover · 26/11/2020 20:37

twitter.com/BoyzMagazine/status/1332052779871965186

Looks like they're gunning for gay men now. Anything other than complete agreement is no good.

Readers here will be used to this sort of insanity:
twitter.com/robholley/status/1332054419337334789
I wonder if it will wake up those who have not seen it before?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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7Days · 28/11/2020 19:19

Quaagers - jeez- it was answered loads of times upthread in the context of, of course teach kids the mechanics of hetero sex in biology to teach about human reproduction. In RSE teach them that sexual relationships- all of them, of any orientation- are about consent, pleasure and waiting til you're ready.

Quaagars · 28/11/2020 19:23

Quaagers - jeez- it was answered loads of times upthread in the context of, of course teach kids the mechanics of hetero sex in biology to teach about human reproduction. In RSE teach them that sexual relationships- all of them, of any orientation- are about consent, pleasure and waiting til you're ready

Yes, that's my point though.
By the stance on here, it seems that it is fine to talk about sex as reproduction, but if it's not for reproduction purposes, then no, should just be about consent, pleasure and when you're ready - and that if you're gay, you just have to work it out for yourself what goes where or what you do.

Duckwit · 28/11/2020 19:23

OK, but the point was are they told about gay sex in the same way that they are told about heterosexual sex in high school?

I was taught about what gay sex involved in high school in the 90s - and I went to an all girls school! Why do you think that kids aren't taught about gay sex in school?

'Teaching gay sex' doesn't mean you have to teach fisting and docking does it?

PotholeParadies · 28/11/2020 19:27

Mmm.

Quaagers This harping on about "gay sex" from you is sounding uncomfortably like what I used to hear from genuine homophobes. What they meant was anal sex.

It is homophobic to exclusively associate anal sex with gay men and it would be homophobic to label it as 'gay sex' in RSE classes. It is a form of sex act, and it is not compulsory for gay men to participate in it.

Penis-in-vagina intercourse is factually where most of the world's human babies come from, and where all the puppies and kittens come from too. This fact should be part of school education, as should gravity, algebra and photosynthesis. It is not particularly necessary to label it as heterosexual sex, either as that again implies that a heterosexual couple's sex life is incomplete if they do not engage in it.

midgebabe · 28/11/2020 19:33

Quarters are you suggesting that consent and pleasure don't apply to gay sex?

Yes, basic reproduction needs to be known because of the problem of teenage pregnancy

Then you really only do need to teach respect, consent, pleasure because what that means for any couple no matter what sexuality, is individual, private and rather instinctive.

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/11/2020 19:33

Then you (general you, not you personally) wonder why a gay magazine has backed away, I mean I can kind of see why?!

The magazine were actually promoting LGBA, they must have known what they were about because they were asking people to just hear them out. They only backed away because of the baying mob, not because they disagreed with LGBA.

But given that even backing away and making the expected 'forgive me, for I have sinned' donation to Sardines still isn't good enough, they're probably regretting not telling the overgrown children to piss the fuck off.

PotholeParadies · 28/11/2020 19:36

As some may be aware, a quirk of the civil partnership legislation is that there was no consummation clause (opposite-sex marriages can be annulled if it hasn't been consummated) because it was decided it was not the Houses of Parliament's place to mandate what consummation of a sexual relationship between a same sex couple was.

christinarossetti19 · 28/11/2020 19:37

@Quaagars

Homophobic slurs are still rife in schools and both of my children's school come down hard on instances of homophobia or homophobic bullying

The poster upthread was saying that's how they learnt about gay sex though - through playground bullying, not whether or not homophobic bullying was/is tackled or not.
Just would it not be better to learn about it in school like they do heterosexual sex?

In it's simplest terms, sex is intimate contact between two consenting adults which involves their genitals
Agree, but they detail hetero sex (as in what goes where) but don't non hetero sex?
I don't think they do anyway, happy to be corrected

A number of people in this thread have explained that homosexual sex is taught in schools.

The details about heterosexual sex are largely in the context of safe sex and preventing pregnancy.

It's likely that, in the overall context of a homophobic society, there is less information given about the details of homosexual sex.

But suppression of information about homosexual sex isn't what the majority of posters on this thread are arguing for.

RealityNotEssentialism · 28/11/2020 19:37

@Quaagars so many people have said that they support teaching kids about gay as well as straight sex in school which you seem to be ignoring for some reason. Our problem is with teaching about and normalising fetishes and sexual practices that could be dangerous and which, until recently, were not practices that teens engaged in.

Also, I am an adult and I wouldn’t want to take part in a session on learning how to use a strap-on so why does anyone think that a young teen would want to sit with their mates and learn that from a teacher?

Inclusive relationship education - yes, including acknowledgment of range of sexual practices by straight, lesbian and gay couples, ie that while a straight man would penetrate the vagina and a gay man would penetrate the anus.

Sex toys and how to use them, fisting, rimming, porn, choking, BDSM, anything that involves violence - no, not when they are under 16 and not as a compulsory part of the curriculum. This was what LGBA had an issue with but it was twisted to make out they were homophobic because that fits the TRA narrative.

I don’t see why its so hard to understand the difference. Nor do I think science books teach straight people ‘how to have sex’. People have figured it out for centuries before there was such a thing as a science book.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 28/11/2020 19:40

Quaagars,

I cannot work out if you are arguing in good faith or not. I am going to assume that you are.

1). I am sorry if you feel confused and misunderstood. Women here have argued for a very long time that we should use the terms men, women, trans men and trans women. One of the many reasons for this is clarity, both from a general and a legal perspective. It also had medical implications for how certain medical conditions (like for example heart attack) presents. In addition, it is a key part of how many homosexuals view homosexuality as a concept. You have for a long time maintained that trans women are women and trans men are men. And that as a result of this, a trans woman and a woman are in a lesbian relationship. This is why posters here are asking what you mean with gay sex being reproductive or not. According to the definition of feminists here, it isn’t. According to you, I believe it may be?

Nobody here has said that gay sex shouldn’t be taught. The argument is as you also said about a focus on consent, safety (including STDs and pregnancy) and boundaries. People have said that a dry text book with diagrams or a brief description is sufficient. Most posters here object to the schools discussing techniques, various positions, sex toys, anal sex without the risks, etc, etc. This goes for all kinds of sexual relationships.

Quaagars · 28/11/2020 19:43

I was taught about what gay sex involved in high school in the 90s - and I went to an all girls school!l?

Really? In the UK? If you are, thought you couldn't what with section 28?
We certainly weren't taught about what it involved late 80s/early 90s, I wasn't anyway and I guess a lot of other schools didn't either.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 28/11/2020 19:43

The thread has moved on, and much light has been shed. Perhaps it's too late to add this, but I'm going to anyway because it took a while to write.

There are several subjects that ought to be covered in school now that all 14 year olds are more likely than not to have watched porn videos over the internet.

Apart from the basics of consent, resisting pressure, and recognising the sad fact that someone who consistently ignores your boundaries does not have your best interests at heart, I’d also like to see more detailed information about the serious risks involved when copying stuff seen in pornography. Young people don't believe everything they see in a film, they understand about special effects and stunt tricks, but they don't seem to realise that the porn they watch is just as fake, and just as dangerous to emulate.

Wouldn't it be easier to resist being pressured into unwanted anal sex if all pupils had been given a thorough education in what actually happens when someone suffers an anal prolapse, or how hard it is to participate fully in a normal, active, happy life when your anal sphincter leaks and can no longer be trusted? (Because that shit is the opposite of sexy). These are the kind of facts that give a different perspective, and that help bolster your resistance if someone you thought cared about you keeps applying pressure long after you've said no. It might help some young girls recognise the warning signs that are obvious to more experienced women, and dodge an abusive relationship.

I’m astounded by the number of otherwise rational adults who believe that an enema, and a thorough washing of the target area, reduces the risk of infection to such negligible levels that rimming becomes a perfectly safe sexual practice.

Don’t they teach microbiology in schools? All washing does is make it less likely you’ll taste or smell shit, and in the case of enemas (or, even more horrendously, taking the shower head off the shower hose and sticking the hose up your bum) actually increase the risk of infection. Virus, bacteria and other pathogens will still be present in sufficient numbers to transmit disease.

Humans do not have canine gastrointestinal tracts, we did not evolve to lick each others anuses.

When most people worry about picking up a sexually transmitted disease they think of herpes, genital warts, gonorrhoea, syphilis and hepatitis.

So I really wish, for the benefit of public health, that schools would to go into detail about the realities of fecal-oral transmission, to ensure that not a single pupil leaves school ignorant of these basic facts.

Making sure that each pupil is fully aware that washing “freshens” the area, but does not reduce the risks, and that every time you use your tongue on the anal sphincter of another person you are exposing yourself to the risk of catching Salmonella, shigella, E. coli and campylobacter, (all serious bacterial diseases that can be passed on from symptomless carriers), as well as parasites, such as Trichomoniasis, Giardiasis, Amebiasis and Cryptosporidiosis, (truly horrible and in some cases impossible to treat) as well as the more mundane tape worms and threadworms that thrive in the human bowel. As well as all the usual STIs listed above.

Everyone deserves to know these facts because the internet is full of articles blithely claiming that shaving, washing with soap, and not indulging when you have cold sores or haemorrhoids makes rimming as safe as any other sexual practice!

I’d use it as an opportunity to discuss health and safety at work legislation, the principles behind safeguarding, how before health and safety regulations were enforced only a few hundred people died each year as a result of workplace accidents, so why did we bother to legislate when it inconveniences the vast majority of people who won’t get hit on the head but still aren’t allowed on a work site without a hard hat?

Which could lead on to a discussion of how come, if sex work really is work, a job like any other, health and safety regulation doesn’t seen to cover sex workers? Why the people being exploited in pornography aren’t provided with dental dams and surgical gloves when the script requires anal “play”? Considering also how unlikely it is that people who have worked in the industry for years, and who are responsible for writing the scripts, could possibly be unaware of the consequences when they insist on the participants being unprotected?

An equally educational discussion could focus on why people do not use barrier protection when they take part in highly dangerous sexual activities. Why is taking offence so often a gut reaction when a new partner insists on using a dental dam? We’ve worked so hard to get young people to accept condoms as a natural part of exploring sexuality, but dental dams are rarely mentioned, and never seen in pornography. Can younger mumsnetters tell me, are they hauled out along with the condoms in modern sex education?

We still have a long way to go if reaching for a dental dam is seen as an insult to a partner’s personal hygiene, rather than mature and responsible sexual behaviour that shows respect for all concerned.

PotholeParadies · 28/11/2020 19:44

Fascinating how this discussion has become so penetration focused. Anyone else noticing that?

Anal sex this, penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse that. Oh, and hygiene routines for strap-ons.

I'm sure there are sexual activities that women enjoy that don't involve anything being penetrated. Don't seem to get much of a look-in though on this thread though. Anyone worrying about lesbians not being taught about oral sex?

Quaagars · 28/11/2020 19:44

Cross posted with a fair few very long posts so I'm not ignoring them before anyone says I'm dodging

PotholeParadies · 28/11/2020 19:51

No dental dams lessons in my era. Leaflets informed you that you should use a dental dam, with no details on how to obtain them beyond 'ask at a drop in contraception clinic'. After some searching in magazines and so on as a teen, I found a guide on how to make one from a condom and that was it.

Duckwit · 28/11/2020 19:53

Really? In the UK? If you are, thought you couldn't what with section 28?

Yes, it was in the context of STDs, and the importance of using condoms when having anal sex because of tissue tears. The teacher then talked about gay men and anal sex. I can't remember if that was the first time I 'found out' about gay men having anal sex, I'm not sure it was actually (I think I had probably figured out for myself before then?) although I think it was the first time I learnt that anal was more risky for both gay and straight couples. I'm not sure it was on the actual syllabus, but the teacher offered the information quite matter of factly without any sort of judgement value that I remember anyway - I guess with it being an all girls school the content didn't need to be expanded on all that much.

Winesalot · 28/11/2020 19:58

Seeing as gay sex doesn't end in reproduction, should they just learn about how to do it etc from playground talk/homophobic bully slurs etc as mentioned upthread then, or if not, how?

Surely covering oral and anal sex can be covered from a safety aspect. There are ways to cover these I am sure at an appropriate age with a balanced approach. I have been looking at my teen’s sex ed and it is certainly not detailed. Appropriate issues are covered including safety and a very prominent focus on consent.

Why is what lesbians do their own business? (which implies shouldn't be spoken/taught about?

There has been a lot of discussion about sex toys And techniques etc that I don’t think is necessarily appropriate to go into in a detailed fashion. Maybe that is what is meant. I don’t believe sex education should be a ‘how to’ session as such. Many topics can be broached sensitively and age appropriately without discussing ‘how to’ like a sex manual! For instance, anal sex should be approached keeping in mind current stats on forcing girls and young women to perform porn sex acts.

Topics surely can be covered in a way that teaches no person should be coerced into any act (even to feel ‘those who don’t are prudes’) AND how acts like anal sex and choking can so easily harm people. But this information should be age appropriate.

For instance, my teen has shown me how 13/14 yr old girls are engaging with males posting pics with their hands in a choking position. Because they are being socialized to think this is, well, ‘cool’.

Or maybe I am completely wrong and I am happy to be corrected.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 28/11/2020 19:59

I do not know how to make it any clearer

Children are taught about sex, both heterosexual and homosexual in school

School sex education has come on in leaps and bounds since the 80’s

Quaagars · 28/11/2020 20:13

Quarters are you suggesting that consent and pleasure don't apply to gay sex?

Quarters?
And no, not at all

Winesalot · 28/11/2020 20:18

Fascinating how this discussion has become so penetration focused. Anyone else noticing that?

That could be my fault. I was asking a male poster to clarify why it was ok for for the sex Ed to not be clear about harms and how few females enjoy it, yet numbers indicate how they are forced into it.

To be clear , I was talking about some education resources that were not really adequate for use.

Apologies. I think it snowballed from there.

BlackWaveComing · 28/11/2020 20:52

@PotholeParadies

Fascinating how this discussion has become so penetration focused. Anyone else noticing that?

Anal sex this, penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse that. Oh, and hygiene routines for strap-ons.

I'm sure there are sexual activities that women enjoy that don't involve anything being penetrated. Don't seem to get much of a look-in though on this thread though. Anyone worrying about lesbians not being taught about oral sex?

My lesbian DD was not given any safe sex info in her school's mandated safe sex classes (AU). This was in Yr 11, so age appropriate time, imo, for all students to receive safe sex info pertinent to them.

Obviously, not a prob for DD, out, proud and supported at home, because we obtained relevant info for her before the class sit even occurred - not all lesbian teens have support and accurate info provided at home.

BlackWaveComing · 28/11/2020 20:53

Oh, this was in 2016.

RealityNotEssentialism · 28/11/2020 20:54

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin that’s interesting information and I doubt it’s delivered like that when it’s taught. I don’t think dental dams are normalised.

I think it needs to be taught frankly and honestly. Yes, heterosexual couples have anal sex but 15-20 years ago, teens were NOT having anal sex as a general rule. They’d wait until they were older. Something has obviously changed (porn).

If the reality of anal is made clear then maybe a lot of the girls who agree to it now wouldn’t. There’s a substantially increased risk of fecal incontinence from having anal sex. If you’re a gay man, you might decide to take that risk, and if you have a partner you might take turns receiving, so there is a risk to both of you. If you’re a straight woman though, you might take the view that it’s a one sided risk (ie no risk to the man) and also one sided pleasure (ie man gets much more out of it than woman, with some exceptions). So if I was a girl who heard that anal sex would increase my risk of leakage from the bum and my boyfriend wanted to try anal because he’d watched porn I’d say no because it’s hardly like he’s being deprived if he has vaginal sex.

Also while condoms are taught about, sooo many men don’t want to wear them or remove them.

They may also want to tell the students that many gay men take drugs (poppers) before sex to relax the anal muscles precisely because it’s painful otherwise. Having anal with an inexperienced man who is likely to thrust too hard and whose knowledge comes from watching porn is a recipe for disaster.

BlackWaveComing · 28/11/2020 20:57

[quote MadBadDaddy]@dyslek
I think you must be looking at a different thread. I am not interested in discussing anything like that, and haven't, to the best of my knowledge.

I made a long list of what homophobic and transphobic things the LGBA have been accused of, and LGBT education was in that list.

And in response to several posters' insistent and direct questioning, i stated that genital preferences were not transphobic.

I hope that clears things up.[/quote]
Calling sexual orientation 'genital preference' is homophobic. Don't do it.

jj1968 · 28/11/2020 21:50

Wouldn't it be easier to resist being pressured into unwanted anal sex if all pupils had been given a thorough education in what actually happens when someone suffers an anal prolapse, or how hard it is to participate fully in a normal, active, happy life when your anal sphincter leaks and can no longer be trusted? (Because that shit is the opposite of sexy).

Those things are exceedingly rare and all human sexual activity carries a degree of risk of both injury and disease, I'm not sure whipping up homophobic scare stories about the terrible dangers of anal sex is very helpful. And even if that was the approach then surely harm reduction measures are the most appropriate way to address any risks, use lots of lube, go slowly etc.

If the message given out to young people is that anal sex is highly dangerous, no woman would ever want to do it and its likely to cause all manner of injuries, but it's okay for the gays then that is likely to make young gay men feel stigmatised and also its just not true. Surely far better to focus on coercion, porn promoting unrealistic sexual practices (which in some cases can be very dangerous), enthusiastic consent and safety for all forms of sex. Because as wrong as it is a for a man to coerce or force a woman into anal sex, its equally wrong for anyone to coerce or force anyone into any kind of sex. I don't have a problem with discussions about the typical gendered nature of sexual violence, but the over-arching message should be coercion is wrong, whoever is doing it and whatever the activity.