Woke staff revolt over Jordan Peterson book

[Apollo440]

thepostmillennial.com/publishers-woke-staff-revolt-over-jordan-petersons-new-book

Isn't he regarded as transphobic for refusing to use compelled speech and warning of the consequences (and proven right by Yaniv). Seems like the woke at Random House publishing are appalled that their business is based on making a profit. Peterson may not be your glass of tea but he's hardly Goebals.

ChattyLion, yes the impact books have is probably quite limited and the response is often based on misogyny and homophobia already in the culture, not the power of the book itself.

The notion that biological sex is a social construct has become very widespread and that idea was popularised by Butler. Of course most of the people who refer to her have never actually read the book, but that is where the idea comes from. I don’t think we should underestimate the power of academia given how many people now go to university.

None of that is justification for overestimating the danger of books of course. I think we are agreed they are just books. It is the culture they exist in that causes the issue.

I don’t like Jordan Peterson but he’s allowed to hold the views he likes.

Can't stand Peterson, and disagree with much of what he says.

I don't personally think that much of Peterson: to my mind he's the "non-thinking man's intellectual."

I quite like Peterson at times. Other times I disagree - I manage my trauma about it.

I've not got much time for Jordan Peterson, whose ideology lacks any real consistency other than "How the world would suit me."

I disagree with a lot of what JP says, he's got a very traditional view of gender roles and religion.

I think JP is a bit of a dick.

I think he’s an odious little man and I disagree with him on most things.

Some celebration!

What's happening to Peterson at Penguin happened to Joe Rogan & Abigail Shrier at Spotify and Suzanne Moore at the Guardian.

I was going to say that if we don't criticise these woke bullies at every turn, we would fall into the expanding category of acceptable targets, but that happened years ago.

And this private sector censorship is just the thin end of the wedge. As we know - Amnesty, et al. recently called for GC feminists and gay rights campaigners in Irelend to be censored and disenfranchised by the government.

I like him. I wouldn't say I celebrate him, but I like what he has to say and like the contribution that he makes. I don't always agree with him (and I don't always understand him) but I think young men in particular could do worse than seek him out, and consider incorporating some of his ideas into their lives. His self-help book has the rare distinction of being actually really quite helpful - and he clearly and persuasively tells men to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and be ready to be good partners and fathers. He's a good teacher and I would imagine a very good therapist. He does the whole 'tough love' thing which I think is very much needed these days.

I'd rather have a generation of men brought up to be tough-minded, resilient, responsible, family-oriented and caring than a generation of "male feminists" in any case.

But even if you hate all that and hate JP, it's still true that he should have the right to speak and be published. The anti-free speech lobby can't win this one.

I'd rather have a generation of men brought up to be tough-minded, resilient, responsible, family-oriented and caring than a generation of "male feminists" in any case.

From that Louise Perry article I mentioned previously:

The truth is that, if men started behaving in the way that Peterson advises, the feminist movement could pack up and go home. If all men controlled their violent aggression, supported their children, treated their spouses with honesty and dignity, stopped watching porn, stopped buying sex, and applied themselves to the task of behaving more ethically in every area of their lives, then there would be no more need for feminism. Plenty of men are doing this already, and more might do so under Peterson’s influence. That’s a good thing.

...

These aren’t comfortable ideas but they are important. They are also hugely consequential for women, who are particularly vulnerable to abuse by aggrieved, violent men, and desperately in need of solutions.

It’s not as though there are many others being presented. Influential feminists continue to insist that we should just “teach men not to rape” through consent workshops and privilege-checking, but thus far that strategy has produced nothing except confusion and resentment. At least Peterson is thinking hard about this issue — harder, in fact, than the authors of most of the pink-covered books stacked in the “gender and sexuality” section.

Some celebration!

Why would it be a celebration? Laughing at the cossetted, privileged adult babies who are trying to get Peterson's book cancelled has nothing to do with celebrating Peterson. The whole point about free speech is that even people we don't like should have it.

Yy, InspiralCoalescenceRingdown! Thin end of the wedge indeed. These thought-policing despots should be challenged at every single turn.

It's not even the "thin end" of the wedge any more. It's getting quite fat.

The thin end was a couple of decades ago with leaders of the BNP and similar whatever. We're now at academics, journalists and authors.

In the US they're basically already at "anyone supporting opposition parties". At least we're not quite there yet.

I think maybe what is being propagated amongst children is maybe underestimated.

Wow that story is really scary. I've never quite understood what the Russians etc. gain out of stirring up artificial conflict on social media so it never occurred to me that they might be doing it to children too.

I know that particular rumour isn't necessarily seeded or planted - kids start wild rumours and crazes all by themselves - but children are also sitting ducks for that kind of hostile, malevolent manipulation.

he clearly and persuasively tells men to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and be ready to be good partners and fathers.

I find it quite depressing that young men can only be persuaded to do this through having their ego plumped up with delusions that they're superior to women and by channelling their hostility towards us into battling a feminine "chaos dragon" or whatever. But it's better than them not doing it at all.

I find it quite depressing that young men can only be persuaded to do this through having their ego plumped up with delusions that they're superior to women and by channelling their hostility towards us into battling a feminine "chaos dragon" or whatever. But it's better than them not doing it at all.
wow - talk about presenting someone in bad faith. If you had any acquaintance with what he's saying, rather than the superficial reading
(incorporating your preconceived thoughts)you obviously have, you might be worth listening to.
And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't agree with everything he says.

@Kantastic

he clearly and persuasively tells men to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and be ready to be good partners and fathers.

I find it quite depressing that young men can only be persuaded to do this through having their ego plumped up with delusions that they're superior to women and by channelling their hostility towards us into battling a feminine "chaos dragon" or whatever. But it's better than them not doing it at all.

That's not at all what I got from JP's book and lectures. He doesn't aim his messages at men exclusively, but his message of taking personal responsibility was quickly taken up by men in the beginning, maybe because they are more likely to be on youtube, or maybe because he doesn't do the whole 'men are scum' thing that seems to be what gets pumped out through twitter. Or maybe a combination of both things. So they listen to him. He doesn't plump up anyone's ego, though! Hahaha that makes me laugh because he's so far from that - he more or less tells people 'you are a fucking idiot, here's how to be less of one but it will take some effort because you're basically a bit of a dick!' Lol. I also don't think it's a case of men 'channeling their hostility' - it's more a case of 'if you like women and want a relationship and family, you better step up and sort yourself out or women won't be interested in you because you'll have nothing to offer them'.

I don't know about your 'feminine chaos dragon' but I have to say as a woman listening to/reading JP I've never felt insulted, offended, patronised, disrespected or hated. I've disagreed with him on various things, but like I say, his message is pretty good in terms of people being able to use it to improve their personal lives and relationships.

The Louise Perry article linked above is a good one that cuts through some of the prejudices about him and his work.

I don't personally think that much of Peterson: to my mind he's the "non-thinking man's intellectual."

I think JP is a bit of a dick

I think he’s an odious little man and I disagree with him on most things

What struck me from the Wiki entry is that prior to his relatively new media fame Peterson had a long academic career at a number of prestigious universities, had published masses, seemed to be a popular teacher and had carried on a clinical practice. Dismissing all of that out of hand seems, I don't know , a bit high- handed- particularly the "little man" comment.

I think David Starkey is an odious little man too and he taught for 30 years.

I think that judging people that you've never met on an ad hominem basis just shows that you're not bright enough to engage with what they say.

Ooh irony

New article up from Andrew Doyle:

Jordan Peterson: how the left manufactured a folk devil

Dido my opinion's based on having read some of Peterson's stuff. I used to be in academia and there are a lot of people with extensive publication records whose output I find a bit facile.

I still treasure the put-down one of the mature PhD students delivered a propos of the new prof in his department. The prof had given the grad students a talk on time management in academic research. He actually had the front to trot out the old saw from airport bookstall management books of "only touch each piece of paper once.". Mature post-grad muttered "I've read his book on Saussure, and let's just say, it shows."

Lengthy publication record doesn't necessarily equal brilliant thinker. In fact, in these days of trial by RAE, quite the reverse. Churning out publications at a rate of 2 a year has become quite an industry.

I have no idea what JP's books are about but I have just reserved one from the library on the basis of this thread!

@NecessaryScene1

That article is really good.

I have been following Peterson for some years and I have gained so much from his work. I was brought up in the 90's on radical feminism and have been feminist ever since and honestly, I think Peterson has moved me further forward than any feminist text for years.

I think it coincided with my boys becoming teenagers as the messages he gave out really helped them become good men. Genuinely. Both my boys have listened to him and say he has helped them understand what it is to 'be' as a man and to take on as much responsibility as they can bear, without being bitter about everyone else. And that is not an easy thing to get across to young men, and I will be forever thankful to him for that (their DF is not great in this aspect!)

His Cain and Abel lecture remains one of my favourite things he has done. It really is fantastic and I wish everyone who sits and moans about their live and how hard done by they are, would listen to this

www.jordanbpeterson.com/transcripts/biblical-series-v/

Helen Lewis interviews Jordan Peterson:

Pretty interesting.

@NecessaryScene1

It's not even the "thin end" of the wedge any more. It's getting quite fat.

The thin end was a couple of decades ago with leaders of the BNP and similar whatever. We're now at academics, journalists and authors.

In the US they're basically already at "anyone supporting opposition parties". At least we're not quite there yet.

In this case, I think the word is 'thick'', rather than 'fat'

My eldest secured a media-related degree this year from Salford University.

Cathy Newman's interview of Peterson in 2018 was being used as an example of how to NOT conduct a television interview. Peterson was superb. Newman...well, it defined her career, she can certainly say that.

@AuntyPasta

I think David Starkey is an odious little man too and he taught for 30 years.

Suit yourself- adding "little" to someone like Peterson who has a solid and distinguished academic career comes across as petty. It's a bit sexist too- it's playing into the small man trope.

I cheerfully admit to never having read anything by Peterson, but having read interviews with him and articles about him, he seems to have a fairly unsophisticated set of views.

For me, though, this isn't really a freedom of speech issue. It's about employees at a publishing firm having such a sense of entitlement that they think they can tell their employer not to publish an author who is a major source of income for that employer. How on earth do you get to be so entitled? Where do they think their salaries are coming from? The whole business ignites in me a desire to make them all spend a year working down a coal mine for 12 hours a day.