Irish women will be heard (trending)

[GrainneMhaol]

Hi everyone. #WeWillBeHeard is trending on twitter in Ireland. It is in reponse to Amnesty International, the National Women's Council of Ireland and other major NGO's calling for people who "defend biology" or who are gender critical to be disenfranchised.

Their words: "..Let us say unequivocally that the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology or fight gender identity and expression do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland... We call on media, and politicians to no longer provide legitimate representation for those that share bigoted beliefs."

This is a thread with pictures and the hastag which is trending

twitter.com/TCDFFT/status/1331208440971137024?s=19

A response letter from The Countess didn't fight for this thecountessdidntfightforthis.com/we-will-be-heard/

And an archived copy of the original ridiculous letter they are replying to (usual tropes about being far right etc) archive.is/glPXl#selection-1561.0-1561.202

@NiceGerbil

On one of those Twitter threads is a screenshot of a response from amnesty Ireland which says

There is no such thing as a biologically male/female person.

?????????????????

Welcome back to the pre-enlightenment world where lived experience and personal feelings is what determines the definitions of everything.

Actually, the pre-enlightenment world was probably a lot more enlightened than this new trend because those pushing it know perfectly well what the facts are.

I don’t know. Will check.

I was on Twitter at the time.

[quote dianebrewster]this is Iseult's latest thread.

powerful powerful stuff.

twitter.com/iseult/status/1333047869817950210?s=21[/quote]

I see David Paisley's name crops up again here. He's ubiquitous with regards to trying to shut other people up this week.

I think we should be thanking Colm O'Gorman.
He has done Irish women a massive favour by bringing this to our attention.
Women's rights are human rights!

Well done, lad!

socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentIrishSocialistTDsAndNGOsJoinForcesToDisenfranchiseWomenAndMaterialists.html

Thanks for the reminder to cancel my amnesty sub.

C O'G is boo hooing about how exhausted he is (fighting off the nasty TERFs). Well, tough luck Colm me oul flower. You're the executive director of Amnesty Ireland in whose name you signed this letter. If you can't accept accountability and requests for clarification as to wtf that letter ACTUALLY meant (seeing as our lady brains are apparently reading it all wrong) then you're in the wrong job.

Well, it must be so tiring and tiresome if women get to speak about their rights at all. Or if they think that they don't need your say so to support each other. Everybody had worked so hard to avoid that situation. So much effort in Ireland had gone into shoving everything through under the radar. And the tarring of women as fuckers if so much as said 'excuse me, I think my rights matter too'.

I usually wait until I see them in the charity shop but I've just bought the new Ross book on Easons after seeing Paul Howard hold strong in supporting Roisin's right to have her own opinion

the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology ... do not represent ... feminists in Ireland

I stare and stare at that statement, which is beyond belief in so many ways. What is it saying?
Feminists don't understand simple science?
Biology is wicked and must not be defended? (What about physics? Are we allowed to defend gravity?)
Is it just newly launched organisations that defend biology? What if a long-established organisations defended it? Do they usually attack it?
Feminists are not allowed to give their own opinions?

And Howard in sharp contrast to COG there, Miri, who seems to be saying he both knows about and doesn't know about something that a dear friend of his (also RI?) is being subjected to

With friends like him...

Fintan O' Toole has an article about the pile on of Roisin <a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eDrN_7AS5bkJ:www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trans-people-s-enemy-is-patriarchy-not-feminism-1.4423596+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-b-d" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eDrN_7AS5bkJ:www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trans-people-s-enemy-is-patriarchy-not-feminism-1.4423596+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-b-d

Interested to hear what other people think. I was really interested when I read the title but he doesn't even really address the Roisin thing except for the first 2 paragraphs and then spends the rest of it giving an overview (missing a lot of the salient points IMHO) of the situation as he sees it as regards womens and trans rights.

I would love to know how much this was edited because he makes statements like "Biological sex is not a simple or static idea "

but then he seems like he gets it when he says

""If you’re born in a body that does not match your deep sense of self, the notion that you can change your body may be, literally, a lifesaver. It is both a necessity and a joy. You need to think of biological sex as being just like gender, an invention that can be reinvented at will."

As always with everything these days it seems to come down to be kind "we can’t have dignity and decency unless we recognise the duty to hold in our heads more than one truth at the same time". I hate this American idea of truth being subjective, its fairly rare and usually unhelpful in non specidic cases

Better than I thought. Saying both sides have a point is fair minded, and refreshing.

He distinguishes between sex and gender. Good.

A nice intro to people wondering what all the fuss is about.

They can put 2 and 2 together themselves when they hear about different what's been going on.

Paul Howard's most recent Ross novel takes a swipe at surrogacy by the poor for the rich.

I was just coming to post the Fintan O'Toole article. It's an awful lot clearer and more direct than I expected.

Thanks for the link.

I suppose with the truths thing he's saying sex is true and gender is true - but not in the same ways, if that makes sense.

Is it fair to say "both sides" without drawing a distinction between the vastly different means or rhetoric used by each side to try to get their point across? I wonder if he has ever seen the full horror of TR Activism. Most Irish Times readers won't have read Suzanne Moore's piece and seen the graphic threats, and from Fintan's piece they're still none the wiser.

How much the Irish Times subedits these topics is a very interesting question, bearing in mind almost no-one seemed to wonder why Roisin Ingle said SM's work resonated deeply with her.

I think it is a good article. He has compassion for trans people (which I do too, and can be put off by the total lack of that from some posters on this site) but understands the importance of the body to women. Basically he nails the conflict when he says that for (some) transgender people they have to believe sex is fluid or it causes mental anguish - yet many woman know from their lived experience that sex is not fluid.

I think it is a good atticle in general. It isn't as in depth as it could have been. But it gives a summary of the situation.and recognises where women are coming from.
"Those women need to be able to assert against this assault the truth of their own bodily existence, without shame or apology."

Well I came on here to talk about the article by FOT and I am disappointed that so many of you seem to have missed Fintan asserting that biology is not real and that people can change sex and that Trans people are the most vulnerable and oppressed people ever - really Fintan, ever spoken to a woman in the ME, or even a woman who lived in Ireland until about 2000 and then a middle aged woman who lives here to-day?

Quote "Biological sex is not a simple or static idea" - well Fintan, biology is real and until you can accept that you are no friend to women. But you're safe in your Woke ivory tower.

I think he's dancing around it Annasgirl - not quite saying people do actually change sex but saying they NEED to believe it. That does pose the question of whether women are just being big meanies if we insist we don't believe it.

@SecondRow

I think he's dancing around it Annasgirl - not quite saying people do actually change sex but saying they NEED to believe it. That does pose the question of whether women are just being big meanies if we insist we don't believe it.

That was my take on it too.

FOT article Appearing now on IT Facebook page. It would be great to hear some decent options & not the usual Be Kind shite. I should be working but will visit later.

I like the article. I think it's good, objective, and strikes a balance that is designed (deliberately, I'm sure - Fintan is no intellectual slouch) to appease both TRA and GC sides to an equal but imperfect extent.

Good.

That approach kicks the legs out from under the typical TRA counterattack that the writer is just another big transphobe. (It reminds me of when Mo Mowlan used to talk about the needs of both sides in the peace process.)

A very well-respected, serious journalist has stated in the paper of record that there is a conflict between trans activism and women's rights. Halle-fucking-lujah.

Maith an fhear, FOT.

Stella

twitter.com/stellaomalley3/status/1333705825446207490?s=19