USA gymnastic trans inclusion policy

[Kit19]

I think Ross Tucker is very much done with this bs now! I remember the days when he was much more “it’s a difficult issue/we need to be kind” but the TRA have of course destroyed that

[VulvaPerson]

They stated something like wasn’t less suicides worth females winning a few less medals.....

How utterly utterly surprising. The suicide thing is brought up constantly as a way to make people shut up and feel mean for even caring about the women. If you care about women and voice this, someone might kill themselves, so don't ever argue with us or you are a murderer.

Can bet your arse these people don't actually give a damn about mental health. Infact, that they fight for LESS, or even no counselling for those with GD, that proves in itself they don't care about mental health.

[Cwenthryth]

Can bet your arse these people don't actually give a damn about mental health. Infact, that they fight for LESS, or even no counselling for those with GD, that proves in itself they don't care about mental health.
I’m not sure that TRAs would admit they want less access to mental health support for trans people, but certainly the fact that they will only accept “affirmative” therapy, and tend to cast any exploration into aetiology of gender dysphoria as “conversion therapy” does mean in effect they argue for a strict limit put on the therapy available to trans people.

[Micah]

How utterly utterly surprising. The suicide thing is brought up constantly as a way to make people shut up and feel mean for even caring about the women. If you care about women and voice this, someone might kill themselves, so don't ever argue with us or you are a murderer

The interesting thing is there is absolutely no evidence to suggest trans people are at higher risk of SH or suicide than the general population.

The data does not exist as there’s no way to collect it.

It seems to stem from stonewall/mermaids questioning their trans members as to whether they had thoughts of SH or suicide. Which, as you’d expect, the answer was yes, these people are troubled whether you believe it’s dysphoria or being genuinely trapped in the wrong body.

So this mantra of trans people being at high risk of suicide or SH has no basis in fact. It’s pretty much an urban myth.

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

But the suicide this is pretty dangerous. Surely it would be better to explore if this is true and if so - what can they do to help (and saying ‘yes’ isn’t it?)

[VulvaPerson]

@Cwenthryth

Can bet your arse these people don't actually give a damn about mental health. Infact, that they fight for LESS, or even no counselling for those with GD, that proves in itself they don't care about mental health.
I’m not sure that TRAs would admit they want less access to mental health support for trans people, but certainly the fact that they will only accept “affirmative” therapy, and tend to cast any exploration into aetiology of gender dysphoria as “conversion therapy” does mean in effect they argue for a strict limit put on the therapy available to trans people.

Oh I think many would agree. Afterall as you say, its not a mental health problem and they are against any kind of therapy as thats 'conversion therapy'.

They want more physical health access. But mental health access is a Very Bad Thing.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

Is freedom to participate in women's gymnastics and (because the presumption is clear here that yes, this will result in women getting less medals so the writer themselves is saying they believe male people have an unfair advantage) getting to take the women's medals really going to be The solution to someone feeling suicidal? This seems an extremely superficial and naive way to approach the very serious issue of someone expressing suicidal ideation due to gender dysphoria.

Is this the recommended action by mental health professionals, to immediately give that person whatever they feel they want that would make them happier? Bearing in mind that there will be years of work and training and competing involved and not just turning up to a competition to get the medals, is this massive level of commitment and stress really something that someone in such a profound state of stress and instability could (or even should) manage in itself, never mind find a happy ever after solution to suicidal ideation, considering that they will be doing most of this through their childhood and teen years?

Or is this yet another male without the faintest knowledge or respect for anyone at all in the situation, expressing his ignorance largely because he enjoys telling females their job in life is to give and serve males. Because obviously, the whole reason all of those female gymnasts have trained for years and all the funding and expense of the competitions has been put in place was not in his opinion to develop and support the talent of female people to achieve the best they are able on the national stage.... but merely to provide the setting for therapeutic mental health opportunities for male people.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

It really needs to be recognised by the trans community that these woke blokes are really no friend of theirs. They have no real interest in the issues they like to use, and they certainly don't believe that sex is not binary. What they're enjoying here is the opportunity to loudly tell women how they were born to lose out to men; that is always the core of what they are saying, wrapped in gleeful joy that it's virtuous to say so. Even better, they get to scold and punish women for resisting or even disagreeing. It's an unpleasantly sexist male's wet dream. It's all about sex being biological, fixed and binary, and hierarchical. This is one long sneer of 'sucks to be you.... and you can't do anything about it.'

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

I think they recently changed the rules around shorts because male children who identify as girls wanted to take part, but the leotard alone would "out" them, so they wanted to be allowed to wear shorts over the leotard. However, they realised this too would be outing for the "trans" children as they'd then be the only ones in shorts, so they then relented and said girls could wear shorts too. ... they adamantly refused to let girls from religious families wear shorts, despite many years of asking. Until the rule inconvenienced males, it was a complete no-go to change it

Astonishing. So blatantly misogynistic. Another PP's daughter dropped out after her periods started because she couldn't risk bleeding through a leotard. If girls need something, that's their tough luck.

[bluebluezoo]

International rules were changed in 2013z. Shorts were allowed at regional level before that.

I have no idea whether it was because of a trans agenda. As far as I am aware there was a big push from recreational levels in particular to keep older girls competing, and also to provide options for those who needed to cover for religious reasons. A lot of pressure came from university gymnastics and trampoline groups with muslim members, or those who felt leotards kept them from taking part.

I coached university gymnastics in the late 90’s, and shorts/leggings were allowed then.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Nothing to add that has not already been said. Another nail in the tra coffin. Shut up little women. So sad.

[CaraDuneRedux]

I coached university gymnastics in the late 90’s, and shorts/leggings were allowed then.

Having coached to that standard, I'd be really interested in your opinion of the video clip Michelle (I think it was) posted upthread of the two female Olympic medallists watching male gymnasts (not particularly special ones either) doing women's gymnastic routines, and just doing moves neither woman would have been capable of in their prime, simply because men are a shit load stronger.

(I used to be quite a reasonable rock-climber back in the day. I have no illusions that men with crap technique could climb pretty much the hardest stuff I did simply on superior upper body strength, and that with the technique I'd had to develop in order to climb English 5b on the lead as a woman, I'd have been rock solid on E5 if I'd been male).

[ThatIsNotMyUsername]

I can’t imagine a male being able to do the high beam or the 2 high swingy bars (oh yes I have all the terminology) without knutting himself.

[CaraDuneRedux]

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

I can’t imagine a male being able to do the high beam or the 2 high swingy bars (oh yes I have all the terminology) without knutting himself.

Watch the video! Seriously, it's fascinating. And they have a bloke on old-school asymmetric bars circa 1980s (nowadays they are much further apart) and yes the women are wincing every time he hits it in roughly the nut region.

It really is amazing - blokes on the beam doing sequences of flips the women said it had taken them years to master, and on the uneven bars doing the sort of flip from lower to higher bar I've heard commentators say is incredibly hard - yet making it look absolutely effortless because of the huge advantage in upper body strength.

As for flexibility and the other supposed advantages women have - well, the men don't seem to have the slightest problem with that.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

This is the brilliant Paul Hunt, a star male gymnast who in the 80s often appeared at top competitions to do a comedy act like this during pauses in the action. The point of it was the exceptional skill which he uses to be able to make this funny, but he makes it clear that if he'd wanted to do a straight routine on bar or beam he'd have been brilliant. And he would inevitably have the superior strength that would allow the high scores to come much more easily than to a female gymnast.

It's also worth looking at the historic exceptional female gymnasts - Nadia for example, and watch some of their routines. Look at those routines compared to modern female routines. Then look at the classic build of the female gymnasts of the 70s and 80s and then look at the build of modern top female gymnasts. It has changed from the willowy ballerina form being the top medal winning levels to powerful women with strong build because strength is so key to being able to do the tricks that win the high scores. And to push the limit of what the female body is capable of.

If male athletes can just use the words to walk into female competitions and compete as females and reap the benefits, what is the point of female athletes bothering against such unfairness and disrespect for them and their work?

[MichelleofzeResistance]

Is there any reason why it shouldn't be perfectly possible for beam and bar routines to be added to the male competitions and open to any males that wish to compete there? That would be inclusive. It would be adding to, it would be bringing more diversity. What about a third entry category in gymnastics competition open to all with events selected by the athlete so not restricted to a binary set of events, and celebrate a whole new generation of all rounders who represent a new variety and freedom of the sport? All of this allows all athletes equal freedom without impinging on fairness of competition for females.

If the point actually is about fairness, inclusion and progress?

[HecatesCats]

look at the classic build of the female gymnasts of the 70s and 80s and then look at the build of modern top female gymnasts. It has changed from the willowy ballerina form being the top medal winning levels to powerful women with strong build because strength is so key to being able to do the tricks that win the high scores. And to push the limit of what the female body is capable of.

Such a good point Michelle, the idea that superior strength isn't an advantage doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[ArabellaScott]

I really thought sport would be the tipping point in this.

Oh, it will. But as we know, we have to reach those tipping points over and over. Every time Hannah Mouncey is on the news complaining about not being allowed to shower with the other girls, a whole new swathe of people reach that point.

[HecatesCats]

It will be, but it's unfortunately going to require critical mass... i.e. several athletes at a major event like the Olympics and/or, sadly, a women or women getting hurt. Who knew we were so expendable?

[DrDavidBanner]

After watching Heart of Gold and Athlete A the health and well being of gymnasts is right at the bottom of priorities for USA Gymnastics. Larry Nassar was just the tip of the iceberg and the whole thing stinks to hell.

[RandomMess]

[CaraDuneRedux]

@HecatesCats

It will be, but it's unfortunately going to require critical mass... i.e. several athletes at a major event like the Olympics and/or, sadly, a women or women getting hurt. Who knew we were so expendable?

I honestly don't think even this will do the trick. It'll be "oh, well, natural variation yadda yadda, some people from certain ethnic groups are better at weight lifting/distance running/ blah blah, this is just more of the same, just so happens that transwomen are good at most sports... but just think how nice that is for them, given that they are the most discriminated against minority ever..."

Many women will be quietly seething, but will know that to speak out is to invite being publicly pilloried. Most men won't give a shit because they've always (not so) secretly thought women's sport was a bit rubbish anyway. The woke handmaidens' idea of breaking a sweat is imagining themselves in some sort of fanfiction where they're on a par with Black Widow (who of course is an entirely fictional character who can kick ass on an equal footing with the male superheroes - and it is precisely this blurring of the boundaries between fiction and reality which has got us into this mess).

Glad my sporting days are behind me. And (so shoot me) I have a son rather than a daughter.

[HecatesCats]

I hope you're wrong Cara fwiw. I hate to think of my sporty DD growing up in a world where women's sport seems like a pointless venture.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

Hecates very cynically at this point I am reminded of the script of how wonderful it will be for your sporty DD to put aside her own ambitiousness and drive and passions and dreams, and instead be kind and help to be part of a situation in which she helps male children to be happy and achieve their dreams in the exact way they would like to.

Which really is just a reiteration of the message to female children for millenia: Sorry love, but you were born with a vagina.

[HecatesCats]

You're right Michelle it's a pomo reboot of the same old patriarchal shite.

[Al77]

Quinn a canadian international footballer has come out as trans and is still playing in Women's league. Presents as a man but using non binary pronouns. Strange that trans men never seem to be pushing to get into male teams.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/09/09/rebecca-quinn-trans-transgender-canada-womens-footballer-canadian-olympics/

Are there any examples of trans men swapping to male teams?