what feminism fights are still relevant to you?

[garden4569]

just curious. i have a female family member who is a 1970's quite strident feminist.
to be honest sometimes it's a bit draining. as in my (female) experience, i personally do not think things in this country, in 2020 are that bad for women. i have worked in what would have been percieved as male industries and personally feel that women in this year, have the freedom to choose what industry they want to work within without barriers.
i think as a mum to 3 boys, that boys have a tough time too and that i wish, we were all humanists, rather than feminists (if you see what i mean)
what battles do you feel still need fighting in this country in the name of feminism?

Read this. Pretty much everything women still need is documented in it:

www.amazon.co.uk/Invisible-Women-Exposing-World-Designed/dp/1784706280/ref=sr_1_1?hvlocphy=1006912&hvnetw=g&keywords=invisible+women&hvadid=259042122885&qid=1605654668&dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAhs79BRD0ARIsAC6XpaXS7KuDRVvBX-opSR3F0mFN7mo0dpfi4lZL9ZqLZr1X3zJgg5W8UXYaAvrXEALw_wcB&hydadcr=24401_1748869&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-300054845456&adgrpid=53934934740&hvrand=8856372081017686072&sr=8-1

What's your thinking OP?

A lot to mull over.

Of course your relative may just be annoying and she'd get your back up talking about gardening, the merits of wh Smith or the colour green...

Have you got something useful out of the thread?

garden4569 what particular inequalities do men suffer just because of their sex? I'm not asking what men suffer, so I am not interested in whether men can, or do suffer from violence or rape, or any particular harm. My question specifically asks in what way are men suffering any sort of inequality simply by virtue of their sex?

when i worked in a male led industry, at that time there were no work wear clothing that was made for women. However, thankfully times have changed and work wear/medical trials etc is now catering for women too. i believe has changed.

I have a friend who worked on Covid wards. There wasn’t any PPE to fit her as the hospital had only bought men’s sizes. So she was expected to use a mask that would not seal round her face meaning it was useless.

You mentioned the lack of help for male victims of domestic abuse, but not why that is. There are two women murdered as a result of domestic abuse a week and six men a year. Male domestic abuse obviously exists and the men who experience it need support. Women fought for shelters etc so maybe men can do the same.

Another issue which has affected me personally is the pathetic child maintenance system in the UK. It took me seven years to get a payment and I only got that because my MP stepped in. It is a surprisingly common issue, my ex now has his wages docked and will pay off the arrears by the time his child is in her md 20s.

Most women have full time care when a relationship breaks down, their earning power is limited due to caring responsibilities and childcare costs a fortune. So many women are living in poverty as a result but there is not the political will to change this. The CMS already have extensive powers, including taking away driving licenses and passports and seizing assets but those powers are never used.

Another issue which I am passionate about is the diagnosis of BPD/ / EUPD in traumatised women who have been the victims of abuse. It is seen as the dustbin diagnosis and women who get the label are written off and get no support, men with the same symptoms get different diagnosis and are treated better. Imagine the insult added to injury when you reach out for support and are labeled as personality disordered with all that entails.

Sorry, I'm off to bed, but I saw the title and just wanted to mention what particularly gets my goat are the number of women in mumsnet who refer to their husband or partner "helping" with the housework and childcare.

That is so basic. Where did my generation go wrong?

young men are also raped and have been lured into sexual exploitation. i know of a young lad that was exploited by a female peer and had that content put online.

82% of all juvenile victims are female. 90% of adult rape victims are female.

99% of rape perpetrators are MALE.

Forgot to share source because I get distracting being just so damn mad about violence against women and girls.

www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

@JemimaDuddlepuckkk ...blind as a bat sometimes, cheers

Coyoacan
what particularly gets my goat are the number of women in mumsnet who refer to their husband or partner "helping" with the housework and childcare.

And people using the word “babysitting” when a father looks after his own children.

OP is not serious or she is would have engaged with the NI comments at the start of the thread. In the middle of an epidemic, it is ridiculous that women still have to go to England for abortions that Parliament decided a year ago would be legal in NI.

99% of rape perpetrators are MALE

All perpetrators of rape are male: (1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Ladies loos/safe spaces

Protection of maternity right. 25% of women are discriminated against by their employer. I was fired first morning back after maternity leave. They'd given my job to the sales director's wife. They paid out after 11 months fight but only because I had family legal insurance and could afford a solicitor/barrister.

Equal pay. If we take our eyes off that one, all the advances will be lost in a couple of years.

Govt help with domestic violence which is still rife, and police are only just getting to grips with it.

@midgebabe

Women are included in medical trails but women's issue are broader than that

One interesting finding for example is that after major surgery, men would be much more likely to be given strong painkillers if they complained of pain. Why do you think that might be?

Despite legislation, a recent work reorganisation was halted after it was discovered that your probability of getting senior roles was dependent on your sex

A woman was refused investment funding because she was pregnant

The rules are in place but society has not changed. Indeed it is possible that because the laws are in place, many people think the problem is sorted and so they give themselves license to ignore the ongoing issues & their own unconscious bias

Agree with this re the rules. You can put all the quotas in place that you want, but if women on boarda are still perceived as ball breakers - and they are, by some men AND women, sadly all top often - then not much h changed really, has it?

Everything mentioned on this thread but also women’s rights in pregnancy and particularly labour and childbirth. It seems to be one time where abuse and assault is seen as perfectly acceptable and a woman’s basic human rights and autonomy disregarded, even in this country.

And people using the word “babysitting” when a father looks after his own children.

This has reminded me: the discussion around language, power and control is a bloody important feminist fight too.

While I agree with the general point that fathers are parenting rather than babysitting, it would be nice to be able to describe DD's father coming over to sit in my house being the responsible adult while she sleeps and I have a rare night out as 'babysitting' without having my language policed because that's... the babysitter role, and it's a lot fewer words.

But we could get diverted by that argument, or we could focus on who's ultimately controlling the dynamic of the argument, ie those men who get away with not parenting.

I suppose that really I think of feminism not so much as a sort of battle or series of battles, though that may come out of it at times, so much as a conversation about how women exist in society.

• Goosefoot, I found that an immensely helpful thought, thank you.

OP I think there are many issues facing everyone, I agree that men also have their own troubles and that they need to be addressed.

When it comes to feminism I think what troubles me is how hard it is to see that the world is largely built for men and their needs and wants. We use a male as the default template. It's so pervasive and ubiquitous that it's very hard to see - the accumulation of a thousand tiny cuts, applied from before we are even born. Sexism is applied to both boys and girls, pink and blue coding is harmless in itself but its merely a little marker that signifies the start of a lifetime of differential treatment. Objectification starts early. I have seen this regress/worsen in my lifetime and I'm only 43. Women are forced to measure themselves against a very punishing model - we are judged and judged and judged. At risk of assault and rape.

But all of the above really faded into 'general life struggles' when I came up hard against maternity and child raising, which for me is really the crux of it all. I see it as a wall. How do we get beyond that? I'm a privileged working woman with a supportive partner- I do not know how single mothers do it. How those leaving abusive relationships do it, or any woman with health problems etc etc. We are ultimately chewed up and used as unpaid carers for the large part of our lives. I and many others chose this path of course, but the expectations and inevitability of it are what is crushing me today.

When covid came, who home schooled the children? Who lost their jobs because they couldn't work and do childcare? Who suffered the 10 fold increase in domestic violence? Who nursed and cared for the elderly? And who is allowed to speak up without being vilified? Currently women are listing their jobs for speaking out on women's rights. The phrase itself has been described as a 'dog whistle', which is quite telling.

Our freedoms are very fragile, OP. I hope you continue to enjoy the benefits feminism has won for you. All the best.

@NiceGerbil

What's your thinking OP?

A lot to mull over.

Of course your relative may just be annoying and she'd get your back up talking about gardening, the merits of wh Smith or the colour green...

Have you got something useful out of the thread?

hi,

there is lots to mull over, i do stand corrected on various points - and reading through this, I agree that clearly there are lots of inequalities that must have light shone on them. So, I have got a lot useful out of the thread. there are a lot of complex issues.

i had a look at everydaysexism.com and i must admit it brought back loads of experiences/memories i've had myself that i had kind of boxed away and not thought about for a long time or kind of brush off that were clearly sexist incidents.

I think partly i find the conversations tiring with my
relative as things have a way of springing back to the patriarch regardless of what we start off talking about. I get wound up in defense of my lads feeling that the should not feel guilt for their maleness and the crimes of their forefathers.

I do believe that there are issues/weights that both sexes have to face, based on their gender. I do think that for men and boys it's often harder for them to talk about abuse that's happened, male suicide is known to be much higher statistically than it is for women. poor white boys do worst within education, fathers seperated from their children can have horrible experiences. violence faced by young men against men, that isn't faced by women.

basically being human is difficult.

in an ideal world, we would stop seeing gender inequality and much stronger moves to get all people out of poverty and see inequality and poverty as the crime, this is a rich country and the distribution of wealth and levels of poverty are just insane. that's where i would like things to get to. but equally i recognise that if things went from feminist to humanist as a pp said, that could end up as manist.

but there is lots to mull over and i appreciate most of the pps talking points - and yes you're right, and i agree that feminism still has a fair way to go in this country.

Pregnancy and maternity bring an increased risk of domestic violence, such that some teams of midwives and health visitors have developed covert and coded ways for women to ask for help, when their partner won't even let them have their health appointments in private. This was in the 20-teens in England, in at least three separate nhs trusts.

I can sympathise with, although not agree with, the OP’s initial position. A lot of us didn’t (or don’t) see it. Our lives might be nice and egalitarian.

Thing is, once you do see ‘it’, it can’t be unseen - and it is painful, and makes you angry, and less fun to be around. I used to think equality was the ideal. I am since persuaded equality is neither possible nor desirable; what we want is liberation, as the older generation of feminists said.

it is painful, and makes you angry, and less fun to be around

I'm with you on this Tirisfal

A small note on suicide, OP: Many more women attempt suicide than men do - I think it's around three times more attempts by women. Men are, sadly, more often successful, due largely to the methods used - although I think also partly because men are less likely to seek help. So I don't think it's as straightforward as men suffering more from mental health issues. Complex (and difficult) issue.

I don't deny that there are some serious issues facing men.

Yes, being human is hard. This doesn't negate the need for feminism, sadly.

There is nothing to stop you working to help out with any of those very real issues to help men or the men in your life, OP. They all sound like great causes. But please don't dismiss the work being done, constantly, and often unseen, by many women who are just trying to do their best to protect women and girls.

Also, re 'strident' - it might be worth looking at the suffragettes, and how some of them were portrayed. Vilified, mocked, derided, insulted, abused, beaten, etc. It's very hard to go against the tide, and it's often seen as unbecoming in a woman. That's a very deep seated tendency - we don't like women who speak up or complain (see: 'Karen'). I don't knw your relative, she may be awful, but also I would bear in mind that women have had to fight tooth and nail for all the freedoms we enjoy (the vote, toilets, healthcare, access to abortion, divorce rights, etc - none have been generously handed to us, all of these things involved and involve a struggle) and sometimes that involves losing friends and pissing people off, I'm afraid.

It's also, very sadly, the case that suicide among women and girls is rising and we need to think about what is driving that:

Among the figures is the shocking increase in rates of suicide in young women and girls, which has risen by 83 per cent in six years. It is now at the highest level ever recorded...

www.independent.co.uk/voices/suicide-prevention-mental-health-abuse-uk-brexit-agenda-a9099536.html

Ooh OP this is a firey bit of mn. It's awesome but it's a pin-your-ears-back and listen place. Lots to learn here, the posters are marvellous, if a bit scary at times!
Very glad to hear you've ordered the iInvisible Women book. It's a really well researched, accessible bit of writing.
Welcome to feminism

@MountainWitch

Ooh OP this is a firey bit of mn. It's awesome but it's a pin-your-ears-back and listen place. Lots to learn here, the posters are marvellous, if a bit scary at times! Very glad to hear you've ordered the iInvisible Women book. It's a really well researched, accessible bit of writing. Welcome to feminism

thanks.

also, i must add, my relative isn't awful and i'm doing her a massive disservice to imply that she is, in fact, she's pretty awesome.