what feminism fights are still relevant to you?

[garden4569]

just curious. i have a female family member who is a 1970's quite strident feminist.
to be honest sometimes it's a bit draining. as in my (female) experience, i personally do not think things in this country, in 2020 are that bad for women. i have worked in what would have been percieved as male industries and personally feel that women in this year, have the freedom to choose what industry they want to work within without barriers.
i think as a mum to 3 boys, that boys have a tough time too and that i wish, we were all humanists, rather than feminists (if you see what i mean)
what battles do you feel still need fighting in this country in the name of feminism?

As many people have pointed out - while workplaces are better, they are by no means equal yet. So that's a fight I want to see feminist organizations continue with.

Sex is an area I really want to see feminism act on. The current trends towards activity that centers male dominance and female humiliation and pushes boundaries on practices that can be unsafe, especially for women, really needs some strong push back. Along with the move away from the Nordic model for dealing with prostitution, it's been a big step backward from the trends of 30+ years ago when the male gaze was being challenged.

I'd like to see a lot more work on the impact of sexism on BAME women, older women, disabled women, women with children, etc. Government in particular still seems to keep turning a blind eye to the way policies intended to lift up one area frequently has a smaller impact on those who fall into multiple protected classes, so though they are in greatest need, they fail to get greatest benefit.

Social change that encourages men to take on more of the unpaid work that women have traditionally done - building social networks, caring responsibilities, emotional labour. While men have improved a bit, they are still way behind and until they step up women won't be free to do as much in other domains. In particular, I'd like to see there be pressure on government to more formally recognise the skills that go into these traditionally female activities. For instance, by recognising the ability to show empathy and act on it a trait that gets looked for, developed and promoted in the criminal justice service, health and social care, civil service, education, armed service etc. throughout - on the front lines, at leadership levels and when recognising service to the country through the Honours system.

OP, I suppose that really I think of feminism not so much as a sort of battle or series of battles, though that may come out of it at times, so much as a conversation about how women exist in society.

That's not something that finishes because the society keeps changing.

As for questions around women that seem important to me right now, there are all the questions about women as a category at all. And also I think the problem of sexual exploitation, especially in pornography, is very relevant. I also think though that our thinking about women has come to a bit of a turning point - 2nd wave feminism had influences coming from several directions. Marxism, but also increasing technological ability to control reproduction, and the sexual revolution. The push and pull of capitalism driving women into the workplace. There has always been some friction among these but they have formed some pretty significant knots now, I'd include gender ideology, the problem of motherhood , the problem of the marketplace of sex, among them. There is a need for some unraveling, some challenging of assumptions, some new ideas and directions.

@JemimaDuddlepuckkk

that pay gap exists even if you only consider women who have never had children.

I thought the study by the Economist found that childless women 'continue to be promoted more aggressively than their male peers'. I'll try to find the debate it was in.

Not seen that, would be grateful if you do find a link.

but I would observe that both facts could be true at the same time!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8953995/Irish-man-cleared-assault-claiming-partners-injuries-caused-poltergeist-activity.html?ito=nativesharee_article-masthead

Nope,nothing to see her. We have it all sorted.

Haven't RTFT

Answer - All of them*.

(not the fun kind though).

I wonder garden4569 if you would like equality of harms? It sounds as though it isn't good enough that stats show how much women are harmed in our society but because harm happens to men too do you think women should be killed but for reasons other than DV etc. Would that sort of levelling up be helpful?

@garden4569

i thought that from the 90's women were included in medical trials here in the UK

I do understand feminism and don't feel i need educating.

when i worked in a male led industry, at that time there were no work wear clothing that was made for women. However, thankfully times have changed and work wear/medical trials etc is now catering for women too. i believe has changed.

abortion in this country is legal - and available... it is this country i was specifically talking about.

young men are also raped and have been lured into sexual exploitation. i know of a young lad that was exploited by a female peer and had that content put online.

there is more support for female victims of domestic violence that there is for males.

though i do agree that women suffer far more at the hands of male abusers than men do at female - though it does happen both ways.

No! You aren't listening!

Yes, women have been involved in medical trial for some time now but ALL medicines, trials, studies, etc etc are absed on male physiology. So the procedures are biased against women - see the early covid vaccine trials for a very recent example!

You don't undertsand feminism. You understand your opinion on it. You are nto listending to anyone else here!

Safetywear for women exists... but is more expensive (often pink) and not many employers buy it as a matter of course - for a wide range of reasons all seated in the fact that some industries remain male oriented. Most women I know buy their own and then try and claim it back on expenses, which doesn't always go down well!

Abortion is not really available in this country wiothout a side serving of shame! And as for the rest of the world... well, my feminism does include women elsewhere.

Yes, men are also sexually exploited. But that doesn't mean that women have to stop fighting against rapists, rape and the law, does it?

And if men want more support then they can do what women have done, set it up, finance it, run it themselves. They can't demand entry into female refuges (no, wait! I ahve that wrong, don't I?)

And that last sentence is just fucked up! What do you want to happen? Support and undertsanding for women to be diluted so that men can be supported and understood?

Madness!

And that is before you get to the relentless press to remove sex as a protected characteristic (a Stonewall stated aim fo a long time now). EVERYTHING those old fashioned feminists ever fought for, pre Pankhurst and on, is being dismantled, decimated.

That's what all the fuss is about on the Feminism boards here. Not the existance of trans people, as many activists reduce it to in order to make it seem ridiculous, but the rights of women!

100% agree with @bluebluezoo - sexism is still ingrained in our society and there are a 1000 ways your sons are privileged to escape it. This is not to say they don't have their own issues (I have two boys too) but feminism is still very much a battle in progress.

If you are looking for interesting reading, I recommend Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. As well as debunking all the pink brain/ blue brain nonsense, what she shows is that the sexist tropes in our society DO have a ripple effect, even unconsciously. For example candidates for a male-dominated job being rated more highly when there is a male name than a female name. Well worth a read.

My main concerns are the epidemic of sexual abuse and rape that happens in schools against girls.

Grooming gangs - and the structural procedures and reform of the police and social services to deal with this (we know how long it's taken to bring several prominent ones to account and how victims have been dismissed for years)

Period shaming in schools, excluding girls from accessing education (a human right) during their period.

The woeful rape prosecutions statistics - which means that largely speaking rape is only illegal in a technical sense since most rapists get away with it.

And so on.

One of the most worrying developments as PPs have mentioned is that many of the statistics referred to in this thread will become obscured by including male born people who identify as females. Which means over time we might see that 'women' are committing violent crime and sexual assaults at an increasing rate, the gender pay gap may narrow, representation of 'women' in key roles may improve and it could all be because the stats also refer to male born people. How will we fight for the rights of women then? When the inequalities are being erased before our eyes?

i personally do not think things in this country, in 2020 are that bad for women is that because i have worked in what would have been percieved as male industries that would be the industries where oppressed Women are not very visible and sexual abuse, harassment and porn are viewed very differently or just not very often discussed in terms of harm caused? and personally feel that women in this year, have the freedom to choose what industry they want to work within without barriers Where did you get this idea from?
Which women have that freedom at a time when work and careers are up in the air for most people? The ones who are leaving education with an expectation they will be groped, upskirted and valued only for their body parts by most of the opposite sex are unlikely to have your optimism about being accepted and valued as a 'work colleague' in any industry they choose.

Things seem good for Women because you're only noticing the happy ones who are able to complain. Oppression is silent and the oppressed are hidden, that doesn't mean it's gone away.

You're not obligated to 'Fight the fight', If you're empowered enough that you can kick back and enjoy the rewards other Womens Feminist efforts allowed you to enjoy then then do that.

Don't mistake your own success for every other Womans experience though.

Wtf at that demonic possession post

' a judge dismissed the charge against him saying his 'version of events concerning the occult, exorcisms and devilish possession should have been explored more by the State'.

??!!

Although Ireland so outside the UK obv.

I'll add to my list - the proposals for reform of surrogacy in this country would place women and babies with less protection than is afforded dogs and puppies by the UK Kennel club.

As long as dogs (lovely though they are) have better protections than human women (and children - though not the point of this thread) I think there probably still is a need for feminism.

Part of me thinks that women who take time out to have children need some assistance to get back on track, but then part of me also feels for those who didn't/couldn't have children and spent more time at work focusing on their career (should they not benefit from this?).

This is an interesting as it applies to parents, but I think it's clear that male parents statistically don't do their fair share of parenting, childcare, housework (i know there are SOME SAHDs and I think there's quite a lot written about how hard that often is). The problem is that men and women who are parents are treated very differently in the workplace, which probably follows from the former and reinforces it too.

For me it's that women are still being discriminated against either directly or indirectly because of our biology. Pay, Healthcare, being victims of crime and violence.

Also, while trying really hard not to derail this into yet another trans thread, so many (too many to be purely gender dysphoria) teenage girls are choosing to identify out of womanhood. If feminism had worked, then why would they do this?
I know only one transwoman (in her 50s) but I know 4 transmen (young or teens) and there are at least 3 more just in my son's group of friends.

Girls choosing to be male, to not be female any more. I get it. Why not just opt out of our oppression? Maybe they will get paid more and raped less...

Vaginal mesh scandal, and now this one with the device to act like sterilisation. There was another as well I think.

The fact that these things ever got to market. That side effects even if crippling were ignored/ women imagining things. Continuing to use them for years. Etc etc

The now widespread use of self-ID to let men (if they say they're really women inside) into women's single-sex spaces such as changing rooms, rape-crisis centres, hospital wards, prisons etc. The erosion of women's right to safety and privacy.

The demands put on women by the 'normalisation' of violent and misogynistic pornography.

And OP, surely you must wonder at the increasing number of teenaged girls who have their breasts amputated because they want to be seen as men? If a woman's life is as easy and desirable as you believe, why are so many girls trying to escape it?

@garden4569
I don't understand your claim that the high percentage of men as perpetrators in sexual violence against women, domestic violence against women, and violence towards other men means that women have achieved equality.
Can you explain what you mean?

Also, women fundraised and built the system of domestic violence shelters for women, because in the 1960's and 70's women could be prosecuted for leaving an abusive husband.
So they could not call the police for help. The police would just drag them back home to their abuser. The police wouldn't get involved until they were a murder victim.
Rape within marriage wasnt made illegal until the mid 1990's.
How do you think that situation benefits the children of abusive men?

You carry on taking your equality and rights for granted, but it was your strident female relative that got them for you.

@NiceGerbil

Vaginal mesh scandal, and now this one with the device to act like sterilisation. There was another as well I think.

The fact that these things ever got to market. That side effects even if crippling were ignored/ women imagining things. Continuing to use them for years. Etc etc

I wonder whether this is subconsciously because men see themselves as core human and women as a version of the core with bits added or removed. Therefore, problems that happen on those extraneous non-core bits are slightly unreal to them.

Sexism and misogyny are so ingrained even in this country (where as a matter of law women and men have achieved equality) that people just don't see them.

For example, say the grooming gangs had targeted black boys. Say those black boys had repeatedly disclosed sex abuse and trafficking and had been repeatedly disbelieved, or worse blamed and criminalised. Say police and social services and other agencies allowed the abuse of black boys to continue for decades and did precious little about it. I am pretty sure right-minded folk would consider that to be evidence of unconscionable endemic racism in those agencies that did nothing. The discourse would, quite rightly, focus on why agencies treat black children worse than white children.

This is exactly what happened to girls in Rotherham and Rochdale and Oxford and other towns and cities. There has rightly been considerable criticism of the agencies that let them down. But that discourse doesn't tend to focus on the sex of the children involved. The agencies who let them down aren't branded institutionally sexist. Noone asks why girls, specifically, were treated so badly by the agencies who should have protected them.