what feminism fights are still relevant to you?

[garden4569]

just curious. i have a female family member who is a 1970's quite strident feminist.
to be honest sometimes it's a bit draining. as in my (female) experience, i personally do not think things in this country, in 2020 are that bad for women. i have worked in what would have been percieved as male industries and personally feel that women in this year, have the freedom to choose what industry they want to work within without barriers.
i think as a mum to 3 boys, that boys have a tough time too and that i wish, we were all humanists, rather than feminists (if you see what i mean)
what battles do you feel still need fighting in this country in the name of feminism?

@MichelleofzeResistance

Well as a parallel example as a country we've stopped shoving children up chimneys and shipping them off to Canada, which is great and enormous progress, but that doesn't mean I think it's a waste of time for any child centred causes to continue.

Why are you asking feminists to justify to you not switching their energies and attention to male centred causes as you seem to think they ought to? Support what you want and what's important to you OP, I'll do the same. Women who focus on woman centred causes doesn't equate to male people losing out, in the same way that people donating to cancer charities isn't a threat to the British Legion.

you are projecting something else entirely here, as that's not what i'm asking at all.

OP you have stumbled onto a very unforgiving place on this board, it’s not known for its sisterhood, that’s for sure.

I do see your point, I think that equally should be the goal, and I do think that the very clear inequality that woman and girls face can sometimes really eclipse the inequalities that men can face too.

On the surface though I think it can look like woman’s struggles are a thing of the past, but when you do dig deeper the bigger picture stats do put woman at a disadvantage in some key things that really matter. And although there are lots of things woman ‘can’ do now these things are often a much harder path than they would be for a man. Along with stats does come a lot of nuanced underlying behaviour that make sexism feel very present in a way that can be hard to call out.

I think in answer to your original question the things I feel are the most significant issues is the extent of FGM in the uk and elsewhere, rape, domestic violence and the porn industry. This is not where the issues end in my opinion but where I would prioritise change.

When you haven’t even made a basic attempt to understand the laws in the UK that you’re so clear are fabulous, it’s kinda hard to take you seriously.

@TyroTerf

I don't think I could pick one feminist fight that's most important to me.

The bit that's important is that the fights keep happening.

Otherwise the humanist aim PP mentions will turn out meninist by default.

On a personal level I'd put the reduction of sexual violence and simultaneously the provision of effective services for those who've suffered it as the top priority.

i think that's a very valid point:

The bit that's important is that the fights keep happening.

Otherwise the humanist aim PP mentions will turn out meninist by default.

Sexual Violence against women is increasing.
Prosecutions and Convictions are going down
Sentences are shockingly low for serious crimes against women- who are being held complicit in their own murder as having apparently 'consented' to appalling levels of violence in sex.
Women's rights are being rolled back in other countries- that could happen here if we aren't alert.
Women's rights to single sex spaces are under threat.

Women are under represented in board rooms, and government, are paid less at the BBC let alone other industries.

Women bear an unequal share of caring duties which impacts their financial independence and career progression.

I am mum to two young adult men. I worried about them, and still do, because the world is a dangerous place for young men.

I still see a need for feminism, and would still have more fear for a daughter than a son.

@Bamboo15

OP you have stumbled onto a very unforgiving place on this board, it’s not known for its sisterhood, that’s for sure.

I do see your point, I think that equally should be the goal, and I do think that the very clear inequality that woman and girls face can sometimes really eclipse the inequalities that men can face too.

On the surface though I think it can look like woman’s struggles are a thing of the past, but when you do dig deeper the bigger picture stats do put woman at a disadvantage in some key things that really matter. And although there are lots of things woman ‘can’ do now these things are often a much harder path than they would be for a man. Along with stats does come a lot of nuanced underlying behaviour that make sexism feel very present in a way that can be hard to call out.

I think in answer to your original question the things I feel are the most significant issues is the extent of FGM in the uk and elsewhere, rape, domestic violence and the porn industry. This is not where the issues end in my opinion but where I would prioritise change.

thanks Bamboo for this.

And I still, still get overlooked in conversation by men who are seeking to network. I see men automatically deferred to, when women are not.

There are a hell of a lot of sexists out there, still.

What sleazyjet said, I'm a bloody nationalist from NI but even I can agree that we are part of the UK. Take a bit of time and educate yourself OP before coming on and saying women have it fine now when in one part of the UK in relation to this issue we very much don't have it fine at all and the women here who need access to abortion services are being subjected to huge amounts of distress and trauma due to the lack of availability.

@Nyancat i don’t mean to offend any nationalists.

I wasn’t making a political point, beyond the fact that Northern Ireland currently is a part of the uk and when the op spouts that there’s free legal safe abortion in the uk, s/he is wrong.

abortion in this country is legal - and available... it is this country i was specifically talking about.

This was the statement I was correcting.

I know lots of women who feel 'feminism has gone far enough' OP, perhaps you're one of them - maybe you're much more sensitive to the issues affecting boys and young men because of your sons. Or perhaps it's the patriarchy.

Have look at Laura Bates' 'Everyday Sexism Project' to get a flavour of the huge range of issues affecting young women in the UK today and it might give you (and your sons if they're the right age) an insight into how far from equality we still are:

everydaysexism.com

Oh - and I know Laura Bates isn't every feminist's cup of tea, but she does a great job of documenting women's and girls' lives, it's good to have a range of voices.

I'm in my thirties and I've been sexually assaulted around ten times over the last 20 years. I don't think this is uncommon for women around my age. I've got little patience for the "men experience sexual violence too" argument. Yes they do but the scale of it is nothing compared to what women experience.

I work in probably one of the most male dominated and misogynist industries around (yes I'm talking about you tech bros) and there is a long way to go. Male colleagues have drunkenly grabbed my tits/arse at work events on more than one occasion. One guy even did it at a recruiting event and he still got the job - despite me complaining to HR. So yeah - I don't think we're post-feminism quite yet.

Tbh I think the biggest issue for women in the UK though is the expectation of unpaid care work. Many women are still expected to look after elderly parents while their male brothers/family members shirk responsibility.

No sleazyjet, not at all I understood and totally agree with you. It's a bugbear when some people don't seem to grasp that when they talk about the UK we are included in that and yet, even with the new legislation nothing has really changed. I was just being sarky that if even I can accept and understand that NI is part of the UK, it shouldn't be hard for anyone else (not attempting to be political).

Just catching up a bit. As a non expert this has done me ok.

England and Wales generally have the same laws when it comes to eg sex offences, abortion. It's always best to check.

Scotland has a lot of their own laws

Northern Ireland too.

I'm surprised you didn't know about abortion in NI. It's been a big deal for feminists in NI and other parts of the UK for years.

It had some of the strictest laws in Europe.
Women travelled to England/ Scotland and had to pay for travel and private treatment.
Scotland was it only maybe last year said they would provide on NHS for women from NI who got there and England followed suit.
There was a case a year or two back where housemates found packaging from abortion pills (postal service from feminists to help) and reported the woman and she was arrested and charged...

I'll find a link. This is all very very recent. In the UK.

Maternity/maternal discrimination is very much a live issue, the existence of the campaign group Pregnant then screwed attests to this:

46% of mothers being made redundant blame a lack of childcare provision during the Covid-19 pandemic

pregnantthenscrewed.com/2020/07/24/46-of-mothers-being-made-redundant-blame-a-lack-of-childcare-provision-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

The #GiveMeSix campaign aims to extend the amount of time pregnant women or new mums have to raise a tribunal claim against discrimination:

As the law stands, pregnant women or new mums who encounter discrimination in the workplace have three months, less one day, to raise a tribunal claim from the point discrimination occurs. This falls at a time when a woman is at her most vulnerable.

pregnantthenscrewed.com/staging/4802/extending-the-3-month-time-limit/

Here's some background -
in the decade up to 2016 there was an increase in maternity discrimination:

Government’s research shows that 390,000 women each year face negative experiences and unlawful discrimination, including 54,000 women who lose their jobs.

www.maternityaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/WomenandEqualitiesCommInquiryEv2016.pdf

20 years of being at the top of the industry all gone in a flash because I had a child

pregnantthenscrewed.com/2020/07/23/20-years-of-being-at-the-top-of-the-industry-all-gone-in-a-flash-because-i-had-a-child/

Google gives me this 2018 not the story I was thinking of. Women faces 5 years in prison for getting abortion pills for 15yo daughter

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/23/woman-northern-ireland-abortion-pills-case-formally-acquitted-legal-reforms

Oh sorry seen England Scotland Wales NI has been covered.

I'm surprised your feminist relative didn't mention NI abortion laws tbh. It's been in the news a lot etc.

Women’s healthcare. I have been failed so much by a health service that minimises female experiences. A man wouldn’t be left in agony bleeding from his balls and ignored.

Aside from that, sexual and domestic violence and the poor conviction rates for coercive control and rape as well as childcare costs pushing women out of the workplace.

I’ll stop when people stop believing pink brain/blue brain exists, and women are just naturally better at cleaning, cooking and looking after children, while men do cars.

Until people stop saying things like but men just don’t see dirt like women do, or women just naturally aren’t career minded...

Until family stops buying me things for the home for christmas, and dh things for himself. When the local laundrette stops suggesting ironing vouchers are “a great gift for mum”.

When the salesperson in the car showroom, the dr looking after our kids, the computer sales person all stop talking to dh and ignoring me.

Everyone, who when they find out I work in a hospital, assume I’m a nurse. Not that there’s anything wrong with being a nurse, but out of the hundred of jobs in a hospital, if you’re female you must be a nurse.

When people stop asking if anyone has a bike for sale “girl colours”

When people stop assuming I like shopping and spending Dh’s money, getting my nails done, and worry about my looks.

Everyday sexism is rife. I suggest you follow “the man who has it all”. A parody yes, but deeply rooted in truth and shows up all the little things we take for granted.

Twenty years ago, OP, I'd have agreed with you.

Sadly things seem to get worse rather than better.

I would say the whole damn kit and caboodle OP as I'm afraid we have to start again, if not in the Uk than in the US as the equality act is not going to do us any favours, but, top of my hat, here's my list:

Abortion rights
Spousal Exit Clause
Sex-based pay gap
Maternity rights
Women in STEM (career progression after maternity)
Single sex spaces (where to start)
Rape prosecutions and sentences
Rape trials (but what were you wearing? Had you been drinking? How much had you been drinking?)
The Sex trade - all of it but especially this 'sex worker' bollocks as whilst women think it's cool we have very little hope (but Thailand have banned Porn Hub so there's always hope, even if just a little)
Sport (seen the story on women's football during Covid, seen Djovic and his new men-only tournament?)
Young women being able to be lesbians and not have to accept men as sexual partners for fear of accusations of transphobia
Girls being able to be masculine without being told they are actually a boy
Girls not hating their bodies so much, because of social media and magazines that they starve themselves near to death
(the Pro Ana website trend wasn't that long ago, yes it affects men and boys, no it's not as rife for them)

If we have any of these close to where we need to be (the future no-go zones at Ealing Marie Stopes clinic remains unsure

www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/ealing-council-consult-whether-keep-19268170)

If we have any rights, we need to make damn sure we hold onto them. Every single day. If at any point our rights are solid and we can rely on them, walk around knowing they won't be ripped out from under us, and we can relax a little, then I'd say we have succeeded. But only until the next threat comes along.

@garden4569 I have not read all the thread because I know far, far more than enough to hurt. I have read Invisible women. Please do read it.

I will just respond to a single one of your remarks. Do you think you could try an experiment? Can you think of the explanation, working out for yourself, why it is that sleeping out on the street in full view of the maximum number of passers-by is practiced mainly by men, while women are mainly among the More Numerous 'Hidden Homeless'?

As someone who just in the last decade lost my job while pregnant, during that pregnancy was not listened to that I had significant morning sickness (well, other women have endured forever, why are you different), and have endured so much sexism in my industry that I cannot believe that you have settled for it being ‘ok’.

I am not sure if you have caught on, but do you realise that boards and panels that have provision for women are now having that provision eroded by acceptance of transwomen into female representation positions. There already is a board with nearly or maybe actually half of 8 female positions being taken by males meaning the board is 75% male. Some politicians see this as good representation. I don’t know how you feel about it, but that doesn’t sound like equal opportunity to me.... males who have had better and more opportunities taking positions set aside for women that were set up to address sexist discrimination of the past.

The bbc reported an exercise done by the Veterinarian association this year. CVs with similar information and one with a male name and one with a female name. Overwhelmingly, the Vets said they would hire the male and even if they hired the female would pay them less. Nah. Discrimination is still well and truly alive.

A man was cleared of rape in this country after literally using the excuse of "I tripped and fell".

In the UK. In London. Just a few years ago.

Enough said.

I suspect you think feminism is done because women can now do lots of the cool stuff men always did. Wear comfy clothes, be an engineer, be a vicar, be a CEO, be allowed to complain about sexual advances, get a mortgage alone, have sex outside marriage, go to a pub and drink beer. That's all great.

Problem is men didn't take on much of the woman stuff did they? And we know they could change their minds about what they have conceded. We still rely on them to choose not to grope us. We still rely on them to not bugger off when we have had children. We still know many choose not to "help" with housework.

It is not even.