So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

"Summarising this I want to make clear that the above comprises my work experiences as a gynaecologist at this counselling centre in Hamburg and lays no claim to statistic significance. "

A gynaecologist who runs into a lot of genital issues. Shocking...

Only a man who is a rape and prostitution apologist could read that article and have that reaction. It’s not that you don’t KNOW what it does to women - it’s that you don’t CARE.

This is the summary in full below

Summarising this I want to make clear that the above comprises my work experiences as a gynaecologist at this counselling centre in Hamburg and lays no claim to statistic significance.

I am however certain that the problems described here have not changed in any way in the various areas of prostitution nor following the two new laws in the years since. How could they? The system of prostitution is contemptuous of women and of humanity, built on exploitation and cruelty, and it is mostly about exertion of power by men and about a maximum of profits.

Only the abolishment of this system can be the solution!

Liane Bissinger, gynaecologist.

A gynaecologist who runs into a lot of genital issues. Shocking...

I'm loathe to copy and paste content from the article because it might be triggering for others and I can't give a warning in post, but the 'genital issues' and other injuries catalogued go well beyond the norm. They're horrific and I would advise anyone who can face it to read and understand further the long term damage done to women who (often with little choice) sell their bodies.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=prostitutionresearch.com/the-physical-damage-in-prostitution-report-by-a-gynaecologist-from-street-work/

A gynaecologist who runs into a lot of genital issues. Shocking...

What a dishonest response! The gynaecologist is quite detailed about how these injuries are directly a result of being a prostitute, having sex you find revolting, the physical harm of repeatedly having sex when you are not aroused, the physical effect of repeated sex, of painful sex and so on.

At least your response shows quite clearly that you have no defence of prostitution so you have to resort to such dishonest, deliberate misreadings.

@blindinglyobviouslight

A gynaecologist who runs into a lot of genital issues. Shocking...

What a dishonest response! The gynaecologist is quite detailed about how these injuries are directly a result of being a prostitute, having sex you find revolting, the physical harm of repeatedly having sex when you are not aroused, the physical effect of repeated sex, of painful sex and so on.

At least your response shows quite clearly that you have no defence of prostitution so you have to resort to such dishonest, deliberate misreadings.

My point is that the author literally says that she is not saying her anecdotes are statistically significant.

She is a gynecologist working in an area with lots of legal prostitution, she will only see people who are experiencing problems and some of those issues will be extreme.

If you asked a physiotherapist about the maladies they've seen office workers experience, you'll probably get some extreme issues that arise from people sitting in chairs that also probably aren't statistically significant.

... and some of those issues will be extreme....

That's too many.

Is there a fetish that involves talking shite?

Oh sorry that was for another thread. mm..

I don't think you can understand what she means by statistically significant. That is a specific statistics term. It in no way undermines her point, as she says herself. Lots of research is not statistically significant, lots of government commissioned research used to inform policy and planning is not statistically significant. She was not undertaking a statistics analysis - so it could never be statistically significant.
She was talking about the significant, multiple harms caused specifically by prostitution. This is in no way comparable to office work, either in the severity or multiple harms. This comparison is fatuous and again exposes the weakness of your argument.

It fits quite nicely into this thread, though Iwish.

Anyway, I'll bite... Re. our new visitor's points.

My point is that the author literally says that she is not saying her anecdotes are statistically significant.

Given that prostitution is not an activity which is in any way necessary for human well being, one anal prolapse/ displaced hip joint/ vagina stripped of all its natural ability to lubricate/ case of herpes/HIV etc. is one too many. If you can't see this, well, you and I are morally such poles apart I don't think I'll ever convince you. But I certainly wouldn't want to spend time with someone who thought like you in real life.

She is a gynecologist working in an area with lots of legal prostitution, she will only see people who are experiencing problems and some of those issues will be extreme.

I can't think of any of my female friends in a long life of discussing our health and sex lives with each other who have ever had problems like this from consensual sex. Which rather makes you think that maybe non-consensual sex isn't a good thing. Or it would do if you had any moral compass whatsoever, which I don't think you have.

And a lot of the harms caused by office work can be quite simply overcome with simple changes such as getting up and moving around more, perhaps even standing desks.
You can't do that with prostitution because, as she points out, these harms are caused by repeated sex acts, and repeatedly having sex when you are unaroused (do you understand how female arousal works and why it is needed for pain free sex?,A bit of lube doesn't cut it) and repeatedly having sex you find revolting, and the damage caused both by these acts adn what you need to do to enable you to commit these acts. She lays it out quite clearly. These harms are not side issues, they are fundamentally built into the nature of sex work.

There are so, so many ways in which the maladies office workers experience differ from the problems detailed in the link.
But for a start, society gives a fuck about office workers. Seats etc can cause back problems, so employers are obliged to carry out occupational health assessments. Modern office chairs are designed to mitigate against back problems. There is a huge range of chairs and stools available. Loads of research has been done into posture etc at work, there is a lot of advice about how to avoid some of the problems.

But prostituted women? What are the steps taken to mitigate the physical damage they endure? If sex work is work, where is occupational health and safety?
The "job" would cease to exist if it had to comply with H&S rules.

@CaraDuneRedux

Given that prostitution is not an activity which is in any way necessary for human well being, one anal prolapse/ displaced hip joint/ vagina stripped of all its natural ability to lubricate/ case of herpes/HIV etc. is one too many.

Plenty of "activities not necessary for human well being" can and do lead to injury. Is your issue only with professions that you deem to be unnecessary? Genuine question, I'm trying to see where you're coming from here.

I can't think of any of my female friends in a long life of discussing our health and sex lives with each other who have ever had problems like this from consensual sex. Which rather makes you think that maybe non-consensual sex isn't a good thing. Or it would do if you had any moral compass whatsoever, which I don't think you have.

But those problems do arise from consensual sex. The fact that it hasn't happened to your friends doesn't really have much to do with it. One of your examples above was herpes. A lot of people have herpes.

That said, assuming that your job is not literally assisting people with issues with their vagina I would imagine that the author of that article was drawing from a much bigger sample size than you and that's probably a big contributor to her seeing what she is seeing.

@blindinglyobviouslight
I do know what statistical significance is, I imagine the author of that report does too which is why she is not claiming statistical significance.

You have as much idea of the the regularity and breadth of what she's describing as I do (which is very little).

In her role as a medical professional, she was describing things she has seen. I'm sure anyone in the medical profession can relay unpleasant anecdotes.

@squishysquirmy
I don't give a fuck about office workers.
I used it because it's benign but there are still plenty of related maladies, some which would put you off office work if that was the only description you had.
You could look at dancers, bouncers, manual labourers, massage therapists.
Any job that involves the use of your body (I.e pretty much all of them) carries a risk of physical injury and some of those potential injuries can be extremely debilitating or unpleasant.

I think people need to ask sex workers what they need rather than calling them "prostituted" women and people who don't have a clue assuming what realities/health needs they have.
Street sex work is different from indoor which women who do street sex work tend to be more vulnerable as it is the least safest form. The women are more likely to have serious drug/alcohol addictions are homeless which have impacts on health they are probably having sex with larger numbers of men to fund said addictions
BV/Thrush, cystitis were the main concerns when I worked in an outreach clinic for indoor sex workers not prolapsing anuses.

If you knew what statistical significance is you would know it is not relevant here.

it is obvious the injuries she describes are directly the result of prostitution, as she points out. You don't need to achieve statistical significance to know that it is not 'just chance' that those women are presenting with those injuries.

Unless you think the chinese doctor who first raised seeing patients with a new virus was right to be silenced/ dismissed as his findings lacked 'statistical significance.'

And for goodness sake, of course that barrage of symptons are not seen in people having mutually enjoyable sex. You can't pick out just one and say, well sometimes other people get that so I will just ignore everything other point she makes. The doctor knows her other female sexually active patients are presenting differently from the prostitutes. That is her whole point. How did you miss that? Those awful injuries are caused by sex work. They are injuries specific to sex work.

Other jobs do not cause the list of ill-health she describes. They just don't.

These harms are caused by repeated sex acts, and repeatedly having sex when you are unaroused (do you understand how female arousal works and why it is needed for pain free sex?,A bit of lube doesn't cut it) and repeatedly having sex you find revolting, and the damage caused both by these acts adn what you need to do to enable you to commit these acts. She lays it out quite clearly. These harms are not side issues, they are fundamentally built into the nature of sex work.

Anyone who knows anything about female biology must understand this. It's key.

I think by invoking "statistical significance" sick mistakenly thinks he (possibly she, but my money's on he) thinks he's imbuing his argument with what I once saw referred to as "the testicles of objectivity."

Not realising that he's making what Gilbert Rule called a "category error."

Rile, dammit. I hate autocorrect.

If the women could get a high paying fast paid job that had flexible hours to fit around the children with little qualifications or experience all of them including myself would pick that job over sex work. Sex workers only do the job because it is fast money and flexible if sex workers were supported more to transition out like planning for a career we would see more women leaving sex work.
It is chosen due to poverty and circumstances no one willingly does it

Still waiting for @StamfordHill or @SicklyToaster to come back and tell us that they will agree to be sodomised by strangers for £50 a pop, because after all it’s only a job, so why not?

www.europarl.europa.eu › joinPDF
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Sexual exploitation and prostitution and its impact on gender equality

This is a summary of the research. 90% of prostitutes have been assaulted and 90% are trafficked.

I would invite anyone to read this, absorb it and then truly believe that these women are choosing it.

Jesus Christ, some men really don't give a shit do they?

All we are to them is warm fleshlights. Anything to get their dicks wet, sick fuckers.

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 Don't worry you're comment was bang on the money.