So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

@chickenyhead

And yet stamfordhill refuses to answer why it is that the legal system considers rape to be different to other types of assault.

What is it uniquely about the act of entering someone's body without their active consent that warrants the lack of the statute of limitations.

Why is it that parents are so much more protective and scared of their children being sexually abused than anything aside from death?

To fancifully pretend that sex is no different to anything else is self serving bollocks which allows some "men" to continue to judge and abuse women for their own needs.

I don't want stamfordhill to respond to me personally, I would prefer to swim in dogs hit. But my point is valid and has not been considered by him.

Ask those women whether they would rather mow your lawn or suck you off. Because given the choice it wouldn't be the latter for most.

You cannot buy that, you can only abuse the vulnerable further. There are very few, mentally stable, well off prostitutes, compared to hoardes of EXPLOITED sex workers.

You can work moving cement and earn a good wage, without exploitation. You don't get many sex workers who aren't damaged or being exploited.

Standing ovation

The fact he compares his accepting an offer of a blow job from a woman to gardening from a man says it all.

It's work like any other so the correct comparison is a blow job from a man.

And I really don't think your posts have been misunderstood, Stamford. Not being able to edit is s good thing about MN I think.

I find men who pontificate about how we're all slaves to the capitalist machine and all paid work is exploitation and prostition is just another job... Very tiresome.

I've not read the full thread but slowly working through it., but I just want to make this point althugh I'm sure the conversation has moved on now!

I've worked in retail, supermarkets and bars and have friends who've worked in fast food. I have family members in the services too.

In all those roles there is a strong focus on Health and Safety, regulations regarding working hours and overtime and more inportantly opportunities for growth, training and promotion. In particular young people in the armed forces can get training and qualifications that wouldn't normally be open to then otherwise. so I really take offence when those kids of jobs are disparaged, yes they can be repetitive, boring and you can be open to abuse but they are not exploitative.

so I really take offence when those kids of jobs are disparaged, yes they can be repetitive, boring and you can be open to abuse but they are not exploitative

I've said before on these threads that it is extremely offensive to select certain areas of employment and seek to denigrate them as being no better or even worse than prostitution. They absolutely are not.

For the most part they are jobs needed to make society function smoothly or at least do no harm.

@DidoLamenting

so I really take offence when those kids of jobs are disparaged, yes they can be repetitive, boring and you can be open to abuse but they are not exploitative

I've said before on these threads that it is extremely offensive to select certain areas of employment and seek to denigrate them as being no better or even worse than prostitution. They absolutely are not.

For the most part they are jobs needed to make society function smoothly or at least do no harm.

Absolutely Dido!!

A man getting sucked off is not a necessary requirement for society to function

As a student I did night work removing contact lenses from moulds for £2 an hour. I also sorted dirty laundry off of cruise ships, amongst other ick jobs.

But none of those jobs tore me to peices in the same way as non consensual sex, even excluding being raped. Just someone inside you, who you would rather wasn't. JUST that.

I've finally caught up with the whole thread

What’s the alternative - not offer a service to men who don’t have partners and they have to chase skirt?

This is really sad and I think its men like StamfordHill who create it because they don't see us as human.

I've asked Stamford a few times but he's not replied.

On a previous thread I'm sure he said that his beliefs meant he viewed all sex outside marriage as immoral.

If I haven't got that mixed up. It's really pertinent to putting his comments in context. As his mortality would see no it little difference between consensual casual sex and prostition.

... they have to chase skirt?

Give me a fucking break.

@StamfordHill

So after all that, when a homeless woman asks me for £20 and I don't give her, I don't think that makes me heartless or any other derogatory adjective I've been called. Most people wouldn't just give £20.

If she offers (she's offering - I didn't suggest anything) certain services in return for payment, I see no reason not to accept. It's her choice whether to offer those services, and if we do enter into a consensual agreement, that's not rape. Much like I might accept the offer of someone doing yard work or other odd jobs in return for payment.

If you were a sadist, and she was so desperate and hungry she offered to let you torture her any way you want for an hour in return for £20, would you still see no reason not to accept? Would doing so then be similarly morally acceptable?

Menial work is not the same as prostitution, totally agree. I worked in low paid retail jobs and there’s a huge difference between bagging someone’s groceries and having to perform sex acts on them. For all the men who think that sex work is “work like any other”, and any other opinion is having a moralising view of sex : would you be ok with, say, high end office jobs introducing a term that to keep clients happy you may have to give them blowjobs or perform other sexual favours ? If sex work is work why shouldn’t we scrap sexual harassment laws and just make it part of everyday working life? When I’ve spoken to men about this they say “no, sex work shouldn’t come into the work place it should be a separate industry that people willingly consent and choose to enter.” Hmm , but that doesn’t make it seem very much like work then. It looks like they don’t want sex work leaking into their office...

If it's work like any other it shouldn't matter whether it's a man or a woman doing it. Or how old they are etc.

Strangely most men have clear preferences in terms of sex, age, looks etc. There seems also to be a preference among some for those with little or no experience of working in the sector. Or indeed ever having done anything relating to the work at all.

That's different to other jobs... Why is that? Most peculiar.

@StamfordHill

So after all that, when a homeless woman asks me for £20 and I don't give her, I don't think that makes me heartless or any other derogatory adjective I've been called. Most people wouldn't just give £20

Most people who want to help homeless people volunteer their time or give their money or goods to charities who work in this field.

Men who give street homeless women money in order to sexually abuse / rape them are not helping them. They are abusers / punters / johns. They are most likely criminals / offenders as well because the woman has almost certainly been subjected to force.

I know you think you are very clever sitting at your keyboard thinking up these arguments. But these are REAL PEOPLE that you are talking about - women and girls.

I know many of these women and they utterly and completely despise men like you.

So do most people with a shred of morality and compassion.

@StamfordHill

Taking advantage of a woman's desperation to get your rocks off is in not way the neutral act you are so desperately trying to present it as.

It is despicable and disturbing. Having sex with a woman you know does not want to have sex with you shows that you don't see that woman as fully human.

You ignore everything that everyone has said and plough on with the same discredited arguments. Just as you would have been prepared to plough on with your cock in a desperate woman's mouth and ignoring how much she was hating it.

@Sexworkerasmeanything

Nope we don’t count
Everyone has to think the same way about everything

Well if you want to ignore the voices and experiences of other sex workers, isn't it you who thinks everyone should have the think the same way about everything?

Stamford bill, you said “Absolutely one can buy consent. For anything. As long as the person selling the product or service is of legal age to consent and is in the right mind, they can enter into consensual transactions to sell their services. I can choose to sell my time, my labour, and even my **-sucking skills. As long as I agree to the transaction, that is consensual.”

This just isn’t true. Consent is NOT the only factor which makes a transaction valid. I can’t consent to sell any of my organs, for example. I can’t consent to sell myself into slavery, even if it’s just for a short period of time. Why do you think that might be?

@StamfordHill and everyone, please don't describe people as homeless on the fact they are street begging and telling you they are homeless. Homeless organisations urge people not to do this, not to give money. Making begging more financially attractive than getting help is not helping.
Also, by knee jerk response without thought, there is a distortion of attention and good will towards the people who get themselves into the stereotype box. The great majority of homeless are so called hidden homeless. Some street beggars make a good living, then return to their homes.

Meanwhile, older, disabled, and women who cannot find safe roofs over their heads are forced into risky situations, sofa surfing or living in illegally sub-sub let places, where bed may be a cupboard under the stairs or a room shared with strangers. The dangers of coercion, abuse and exploitation by any fellow sharer or sub landlord are obvious, when the blackmail is to be out in the cold. They cannot tell police, because they have no legal tenancy right to remain.

They do not count as existing at all, for domestic violence organisations, because they are not sharing their home, the place where they are abused, with romantic partners . Wrong 'choice' of rapist, violent or financial abuser or blackmailer deletes them from the tick box list. Out of sight out of mind

@DrDavidBanner

I've finally caught up with the whole thread

What’s the alternative - not offer a service to men who don’t have partners and they have to chase skirt?

This is really sad and I think its men like StamfordHill who create it because they don't see us as human.

The "chase skirt" comment was made by a poster who says she is a "sex worker" but has only posted on this thread.

I know Dido I don't know if the person genuinely is a sex worker but their attitude to sex comes across as very transactional and as PP said futher up there's nthing positive about that.

It made me feel sad because it reminded me of the Louis Theroux programme about prostitutes who put on a very thin "Happy Hooker" veneer, but were all very damaged by their experiences. I think of that often when people have these "academic" discussions because I think even the women who're "insulated" by not having to work on the streets end up hurt.

I just saw this on Twitter. It's old research but the impact of prostitution on women's bodies is horrific.

prostitutionresearch.com/the-physical-damage-in-prostitution-report-by-a-gynaecologist-from-street-work/

@CornedBeef451

I just saw this on Twitter. It's old research but the impact of prostitution on women's bodies is horrific.

prostitutionresearch.com/the-physical-damage-in-prostitution-report-by-a-gynaecologist-from-street-work/

That’s a tough read, but thank you for sharing. Those women and what they’ve been through

Cornedbeef

Everyman who uses prostitutes should have to read that.

Related thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4075131-More-Holbeck-managed-prostitution-news-Schoolchildren-approached