Amnesty says feminist resistance to self-ID "is misguided and not based on evidence"

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

I wrote to Amnesty explaining why I had stopped sending them money, as their support for self-ID was harmful to women and girls. Their reply has just hit my inbox:

"We are sorry to hear about your concerns but Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure.

"We do not believe this goes against our campaigning for women’s rights. We feel the current conversation, in particular on social media with regards to self-identification, is misguided and not based on evidence. Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women's rights.

"Our campaigning on this issue is based on Amnesty’s research on legal gender recognition in multiple countries and on existing human rights standards. It also draws from our long-standing work on violence against women and its root causes. We do not launch campaigns without solid research and consideration for the human rights of all groups concerned, and we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen.

In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier."

So doing a bit of paperwork, rewarded by an unprecedented right to change your birth certificate, is "dehumanising". But opening women's single-sex spaces to all comers is just fine?

I think Irish women on MN have recently contradicted claims that everything in the self-ID garden is lovely.

As for we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen -- I'm now going to try to compile a list of TW attacking women in public loos, masturbating in women's refuges, posting their fetish play online from their workplace at a children's charity, etc etc.

I know Amnesty is just sending out a standard letter, but I’m still going to send some of the evidence they deny. MN’s ‘This never happens’ threads will be a good start. All other evidence welcomed.

We do not launch campaigns without solid research and consideration for the human rights of all groups concerned, and we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment.

Their research can’t be very good because this:

There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen.

is clearly just wrong.

There is a thread on here about a twitter rant against (it's an awesome rant!) Irish LibFems which gives examples such as the TW in a female prison who has to have two guards at all times to stop them attacking and sexually assaulting female prisoners, everything in the garden in Ireland is far from rosy and the evidence is mounting up.

It should be so simple. Amnesty should be campaigning for the rights of trans people, no doubt about it. Could they explain why this has to be at the expense of women's rights?

In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier.

They need to be told about Barbie Kardashian and what's happening in Irish prisons.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4033284-Another-one-for-Irish-Feminists-this-person-holds-a-GRC-and-might-soon-be-held-in-Dochas-prison-with-women-and-childrem

Another transgender sex offender in a women's prison in Ireland.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3644511-Transgender-sex-offender-in-womens-prison-in-Ireland

Men can, will, have, and are currently using self ID to abuse women and it isn't even the law yet. Some of these men identify as men, some of them identify as women. Some of them aren't even using self ID but actually have GRCs so even the system in its current form is harming women. The evidence for this is very easy to find. Transwomen are just as likely to be a threat to women as any other group of men. Because they're men. Its really not rocket science. I can send Amnesty a diagram if it would help?

Women wanting to retain their sex based rights are misguided.

No. Next numpty please.

Am I imagining there’s a court case going on in the UK at the moment, where a woman was sexually assaulted by a transwoman when they were housed, not once but twice, together???

we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment.

Self-identification is used by men to be recognised as a woman. A person recognised as a women will get access to women's only spaces. That's literally the whole point of it.

Spaces where women are expecting to only see other women are precisely those spaces where they are vulnerable to abuse or harassment.

That's why prisons, changing rooms, women's hostels etc are single-sex. We don't make supermarkets singe-sex do we?

They can argue that men won't do it in order to abuse but they absolutely can't argue that men wouldn't use self-id to get access to those spaces. That's exactly the reason for it.

That's before we even get to evidence that men will go to extreme lengths to get access to vulnerable people.

You should ask them for the research that was done before and after the law change in Argentina and Ireland. It would be great to know what evidence they have seen which shows that there is no impact on women and also which harms to women were considered in that research.

Is there a template letter to amnesty with stats etc? My writing isn’t the best but would love to give them some feedback on their policy. It just makes no sense.

Their evidence is lots of medium articles and tweets saying 'There is no evidence this is a problem'. Maybe a few hashtags.

Don't bother them with actual incidents. This is not relevant evidence, especially if it means men don't get their way. Besides, even if it did happen, it only happened to women and that's not that important, because these hazards are just part and parcel of the support human role.

Can anyone point me to the evidence from Argentina that violence against women is well recorded and that any effort is being made to measure the impact of self-ID? It keeps being raised by organisations as a benchmark, but I haven't seen any statistics.

Oh, I see.

amnesty - there's no evidence

GC - feminists here is some evidence...and here...and here...and here and here and here and here...

amnesty - not like that

Does no organisation employ people with critical thinking skills these days

We've all seen how some of those who want self ID act and speak about women. They have no respect for our boundaries, think rape and death threats are fine, think rapists should be housed with vulnerable women because 'meh, women assault women anyways'. The exact types of people you don't want to be stuck in a small space with.

Why should we have to share a space where we're in vulnerable positions with men who don't even have gender dysphoria, and some a deep hatred for women. Why? I've never seen anyone answer that. And how are transwomen, non binary and 'gender fluids' who are so terrified in the men's going to be any safer in the ladies when the ladies becomes a free for all?

There's also that list blokes who were championing self id and allowing men into our spaces, who were found to be sex offenders. How reassuring for us

But it's impossible, they tells you, IMPOSSIBLE to imagine any predators might use this ideology to their own advantage. That'll never happen. It never has happened, just look into this pretty gaslight...

Is the 'this will never happen' thread extant?
I don't k n ow how to find and paste it for you OP , but it's just What you need!

and we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment.

This doesn't even make sense. They're not saying that they dispute men will abuse or harass.

They are saying they are disputing that men will want access to places where women are vulnerable.

Which, self evidently, IS the case. Every single place where women, historically, have had single sex accommodation is only because they are vulnerable.

Men in prison who are applying to be housed in the female estate are, by definition, requesting access to female spaces where women are vulnerable.

Who the fuck wrote that blatant piece of self-serving, deceitful crap??

@EyesOpening

Am I imagining there’s a court case going on in the UK at the moment, where a woman was sexually assaulted by a transwoman when they were housed, not once but twice, together???

I forgot to say that I meant housed together in prison

That Amnesty letter is mealy-mouthed toss.

From the letter:

Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women's rights.

What's being restricted exactly Amnesty?

Is this the same Amnesty International that won't ever get a penny off me ever again? It sure fucking is.

The fact that they're not listening to women from countries which are subject to self-id doeasn't mean there are no problems, or that those problems aren't provoking discussion. It just means they aren't listening.

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

Reminds me of Ruth Hunt saying that Stonewall did not accept and would never accept that there were any conflicts between women's rights and transactivist demands.

Like, it's one thing to have a naive starting point. But the sustained fingers-in-the-ears approach shows this is not about evidence at all. This is pure ideology and nothing must be allowed to countermand the core tenets of belief.

Amnesty helps to 'advance and protect women's rights' by promoting sex work as a 'human right': www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/jul/28/amnesty-international-prostitution-sex-work-human-trafficking

but Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure.

I wouldn’t have a problem with any of this if gender wasn’t mushed together with sex.

Why does there need to be any procedure to live your gender identity? Just do it. Why do you need to be legally recognised unless you want to access spaces meant for the opposite sex?

we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen.

It already has. And it caused havoc in a town local to me.

But at least this statement by Amnesty gives us a greater insight into their thinking. Maybe we should apply their refusal to consider obvious threats to public safety when they campaign on other issues.