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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Poland bans almost all abortions

171 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 17:16

Frightening,

'Poland's top court has ruled that abortions in cases of foetal defects are unconstitutional.

...

Once the decision comes into effect, terminations will only be allowed in cases of rape or incest, or if the mother's health is at risk.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54642108

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RiotAndAlarum · 23/10/2020 09:43

@Babdoc

I share the concern. I can only hope that all women qualify for a termination under the threat to health clause, as a term pregnancy and labour are more life threatening than a termination. So any sympathetic Polish doctor has a loophole to go ahead.
I hope so, too. There's also the "abroad" loophole women in Ireland had to use for so long. With regard to the latter, many civil society programmes sprang up to fund travel and accommodation expenses for the Irish women and girls: does anyone know whether there are any similar initiatives in Germany/ Czech Republic/ Slovakia/ Lithuania? (and it's mad that I'm even thinking this, but I wonder if enterprising doctors in Belarus might be thinking of offering clinics near the border... How shameful would it be to have to go to Belarus for something many take for granted in European democracies?!)
ArabellaScott · 23/10/2020 09:46

Thanks for the BBC links, nicegerbil.

'If the draft law - which has cleared one parliamentary hurdle so far - goes through it will make Poland's abortion laws as restrictive as those in two other countries in Europe: Malta and the Vatican.'

I thought Malta was super progressive?

And thank you for your eloquent posts, Charley. I wonder if the reality of us having pretty safe and free access to abortion here today means there is a lessening of awareness of what the actual implications are for removing those rights? I guess it can be seen in vry simplistic terms as 'saving a life' by not aborting - in reality it may not ultimately save the life of a baby unviable after birth, just prolong it. It may take the life of the mother, too. As you say, we don't have to look to far to see the very grim consequences of making abortion illegal.

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Oxyiz · 23/10/2020 09:50

This is awful news.

As for the "you bloody feminists and your putting the rights of women first" stuff - well yeah. Exactly.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2020 09:56

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else

Spot on. 'Abortion is murder but in this one instance, okay, go ahead'.

Not logical. None of it is logical, though, really. These are difficult, complicated issues with lots of varying factors. It quickly falls apart when one tries to simplify it to 'no abortion' - too many horrible consequences become apparent.

Abortion has been a fact of life for as long as we've understood pregnancy.

' In the epic Ramayana, there is description that the practice of abortion was being done by the surgeons or barbers in those days.[3] The only evidence of the death penalty being mandated for abortion in the ancient laws is found in Assyrian Law, in the Code of Assura, c. 1075 BCE;[4] and this is imposed only on a woman who procures an abortion against her husband's wishes. The first recorded evidence of induced abortion is from the Egyptian Ebers Papyrus in 1550 BCE.[5]

Many of the methods employed in early cultures were non-surgical. Physical activities such as: strenuous labor, climbing, paddling, weightlifting, or diving were a common technique. Others included the use of irritant leaves, fasting, bloodletting, pouring hot water onto the abdomen, and lying on a heated coconut shell.[6] In virtually all cultures, abortion techniques developed through observation, adaptation of obstetrical methods, and transculturation.[7] Physical means of inducing abortion, including battery, exercise, and tightening the girdle were still often used as late as the Early Modern Period among English women.[8]

Archaeological discoveries indicate early surgical attempts at the extraction of a fetus; however, such methods are not believed to have been common, given the infrequency with which they are mentioned in ancient medical texts.[9]

An 8th-century Sanskrit text instructs women wishing to induce an abortion to sit over a pot of steam or stewed onions.[10] The technique of massage abortion, involving the application of pressure to the pregnant abdomen, has been practiced in Southeast Asia for centuries. One of the bas reliefs decorating the temple of Angkor Wat in Cambodia, dated c. 1150, depicts a demon performing such an abortion upon a woman who has been sent to the underworld.[5]

Japanese documents show records of induced abortion from as early as the 12th century. It became much more prevalent during the Edo period, especially among the peasant class, who were hit hardest by the recurrent famines and high taxation of the age.[11] Statues of the Boddhisattva Jizo, erected in memory of an abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, or young childhood death, began appearing at least as early as 1710 at a temple in Yokohama (see religion and abortion).[12]

The native Māori people of New Zealand colonisation terminated pregnancies via miscarriage-inducing drugs, ceremonial methods, and girding of the abdomen with a restrictive belt.[13] Another source claims that the Māori people did not practice abortion, for fear of Makutu, but did attempt abortion through the artificial induction of premature labor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 23/10/2020 10:22

Talk to women in the States who in some places have to petition the local community to permit them to access a termination for medical reasons. Who can then be told - at a public meeting where they had to have a hearing in front of the whole town - to carry the baby to term so as to donate its organs when it dies after birth. Even when that baby isn't viable precisely because not one organ has developed as it should. Of course, those in charge of the council didn't really care about that. They also don't care about these children if they survive after birth.

This made my blood run cold, CharlieParley. What sadistic torture to inflict on a woman. How recently was this?

Dreadful what they’re doing in Poland. And this is a member state of the EU. Which will do precisely nothing. Women’s human rights aren’t worth shit, are they?

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 10:40

That was 19 years ago. She then travelled to a different US state and had to walk the gauntlet of protesters at an abortion clinic there.

Since then, abortion laws have been made much more restrictive in several US states.

Coffeeoverload · 23/10/2020 11:31

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Talk to women in the States who in some places have to petition the local community to permit them to access a termination for medical reasons. Who can then be told - at a public meeting where they had to have a hearing in front of the whole town - to carry the baby to term so as to donate its organs when it dies after birth. Even when that baby isn't viable precisely because not one organ has developed as it should. Of course, those in charge of the council didn't really care about that. They also don't care about these children if they survive after birth.

This made my blood run cold, CharlieParley. What sadistic torture to inflict on a woman. How recently was this?

Dreadful what they’re doing in Poland. And this is a member state of the EU. Which will do precisely nothing. Women’s human rights aren’t worth shit, are they?

This made my blood run cold too. It sounds like an actual witch trial. Were there ducking stools involved? I am so disgusted with the US these days, I don't think I can ever go back.
ThistleWitch · 23/10/2020 11:43

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else

Spot on. 'Abortion is murder but in this one instance, okay, go ahead'.

Exactly, its about punishing the woman for having sex for fun - how can it be ok to "kill a baby" based on how it was made?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 23/10/2020 11:57

@CharlieParley

That was 19 years ago. She then travelled to a different US state and had to walk the gauntlet of protesters at an abortion clinic there.

Since then, abortion laws have been made much more restrictive in several US states.

Thanks Charlie.

Breathtaking. That poor woman. What is being done to women, the world over, is nothing short of monstrous. The upcoming new law in Norway re misgendering being another example.

How very deluded we were if once we thought that western civilisation, at least, was on the right track and that genuine progress and social justice were just a matter of time.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 23/10/2020 12:00

@ThistleWitch

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else

Spot on. 'Abortion is murder but in this one instance, okay, go ahead'.

Exactly, its about punishing the woman for having sex for fun - how can it be ok to "kill a baby" based on how it was made?

Thanks to all for raising this point, I hadn’t thought about it from that POV but you’re all right, of course.

Women sharing ideas and thoughts. It is powerful.

No wonder the people whose power is threatened by our power want to stop us.

Whoooootaminute · 23/10/2020 12:01

I have just seen this on the news now.
Amazed and appalled!

It's very worrying. Just like certain states in the USA.

Women are just thought of as shit aren't they? Sad

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 12:15

How very deluded we were if once we thought that western civilisation, at least, was on the right track and that genuine progress and social justice were just a matter of time.

As I was ushering attendees upstairs at our Glasgow meeting, one veteran women's rights campaigner turned around to me and said we must not forget, that as long as the patriarchy exists, our rights are only ever on loan. I don't think I will ever forget that moment.

I didn't understand just how precarious our rights were until I started hearing from women everywhere on the globe that their rights were being curtailed, undermined, erased - whether by reactionary right-wing governments or progressive left-wing ones, whether in aid of old religions or new ideologies.

Keyperfect · 23/10/2020 12:17

@bathsh3ba i agree with you. This is good news for babies. Life is precious.

JellySlice · 23/10/2020 12:24

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Carrying a child to birth is only the beginning. In the case of a child with severe disabilities it is a lifelong care obligation. That care obligation falls disproportionately on women. It’s very easy for others to stand outside the situation telling the woman what to do but none of them are offering to take the care responsibilities off her.

Women must have the right to choose and I believe I have no right to question their choice because I am not the one facing the consequences.

Women have bodily autonomy.

People who are anti-abortion, who often call themselves pro-life, are like comic collectors: the object of their passionate interest only holds any value to them while it is sealed in its original packaging. Once the seal is broken and the object removed from its packaging, it loses all value to them and they are no longer interested in it. The packing is irrelevant: its only function is as a vehicle for the object of interest.
yourhairiswinterfire · 23/10/2020 12:30

They can still be refused by a doctor for any of those 3 exceptions if it's against the doctors own values too. I hope there are some understanding ones.

BBC news were reporting it on telly earlier and they interviewed a pro-lifer (a group of them were ecstatic about this.) She said something along the lines of "We hope this will set an example for the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world even..."

Example of what, that women have such little value to you? That women's bodies are the property of their government and the courts? That it's okay to force a woman to carry a child to term that she knows will not survive? What about the trauma to the woman after she's gone through this to please you sadists?

And thank you Hardbackwriter for your post-you've hit the nail on the head. I've always been uneasy at some (not all) of the pro-life sides arguments and you've made the penny finally drop as to why. It's slut shaming, isn't it, in the most cruel and heartless way they can do it.

Soubriquet · 23/10/2020 13:02

Now Poland has done it, I hope other countries don’t follow. It’s gutting that this has happened

I see a lot of women coming over to the U.K. for terminations just like they do in Ireland.

You cannot ban abortion. Only safe abortion

As early as possibly as late as necessary

NRatched · 23/10/2020 13:28

@ArabellaScott

I hate the feeling we are losing all of the rights we've fought so hard for.
Yeah, its massively depressing. So recently won, so quickly taken away.

The rape clause, how do they expect to qualify this, given conviction rates for rape are basically non existant? If it relies on a conviction of the rapist, then not even rape victims can access one most of the time.

I also don't understand those who say abortion is murder, yet say if the woman is raped its fine. If its murder, its murder surely? Of course I don't want raped women to have to go through pregacy, but I cannot get my head around the logic of people who think like that.

As a side not 'pro life' fucks me off so much. Its not that, its 'forced birth'. And none of these who are so against women having control of their own fertility seem to have any interest in the children once they are born. Always found that a bit odd too. Almost as it its not about 'the baby' but about controlling the mother.

Swallowzandamazons · 23/10/2020 13:29

Does anyone know what contraception rights are like in Poland? If they also restrict access to that, like parts of the USA.....christ on a bike, they're just fucking sadists.

Gabcsika · 23/10/2020 13:44

@RiotAndAlarum

I hope so, too. There's also the "abroad" loophole women in Ireland had to use for so long. With regard to the latter, many civil society programmes sprang up to fund travel and accommodation expenses for the Irish women and girls: does anyone know whether there are any similar initiatives in Germany/ Czech Republic/ Slovakia/ Lithuania? (and it's mad that I'm even thinking this, but I wonder if enterprising doctors in Belarus might be thinking of offering clinics near the border... How shameful would it be to have to go to Belarus for something many take for granted in European democracies?!)

There is .

abortion.eu Abortion without Borders is an organisation set up to help women access safe at home abortion or abortion overseas if needed.

They rely on funds from the general public.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2020 13:48

Well, I had not heard of gynopedia before, but here is their page on Poland. No idea how reliable it is:

gynopedia.org/Poland

'Poland is experiencing what some call a "sexual revolution in reverse," '

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ArabellaScott · 23/10/2020 13:52

Life is precious, but not a mother's life, eh?

How very deluded we were if once we thought that western civilisation, at least, was on the right track and that genuine progress and social justice were just a matter of time.

I try not to think of it as an ever-increasing 'progress', it doesn't really make sense. We are reacting, responding and changing all the time. Time moves in one direction but the idea that we are evolving 'better' is a misconception, I would say.

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Gabcsika · 23/10/2020 13:57

I am in Poland so this directly affects me. This has been brewing for a few years now. Czarny Protests (Black Protests) have been happening since 2006 and abortion and women's rights has always been used as a distraction by all political parties. If they were having any issues they would float banning or laxing abortion legislature as a dead cat.

Discussion of our rights here (or lack of them) were never serious because they would always fail to get through whether for or against.

This however is serious because this is not a new piece of legislation that can be withdrawn or voted down.

What has happened here is that judges (appointed by the ruling party- all men of course) have voted that termination of pregnancies where the foetus is disabled is unconstitutional. Poland's P-i-S party has being fucking with the judiciary since it got in power and replacing any judges they see as against them as pro. Essentially rigging the system in their favour.

Because this is now a matter for the constitution, any laws that are made by any party for women's right to autonomy of this nature will be thrown out as unconstitutional. There is no appeals process for this kind of judgement.

The only option left is to change the constitution, which is a near impossible task as it needs 2/3 of the Sejm (paliament) vote to pass it.

Other options might be declaring the vote null and void (not sure how possible it is at all) due to the, frankly, dodgy way in which the ruling party has been manipulation the court processes. Legally I have no idea if there would be grounds for this.

Either way, P-i-S have just been voted in for another 5 years. They had no chance of getting this through by traditional democratic methods, so opted for this instead.

Meanwhile the left here (like everywhere) have been arguing about pronouns - like useless twats.

It's a proper fucked up situation and I am mightily annoyed.

There are protests happening, but protests are useless because this is no longer a matter of democracy and legislation or demonstrations.

ThistleWitch · 23/10/2020 13:58

[quote Keyperfect]@bathsh3ba i agree with you. This is good news for babies. Life is precious.[/quote]
Have you ever been forced to continue a pregnancy you didnt want to?
No? Well then don't judge those who have.

Its not YOUR body, its not YOUR choice

TheCuriousMonkey · 23/10/2020 14:04

"Life is precious". Couldn't agree more. The lives of women are precious. The lives of their existing children are precious. The lives of babies are precious. Which is why no compassionate society should restrict access to abortion. Unwanted pregnancies threaten the lives of women, damage the lives of their existing children, and are fatal for a foetus with a condition that is incompatible with life. It is not "good news for babies" to be born with such a condition. Nor is it good for babies to be born to a woman who did not want them. By restricting abortion no-one's life is protected. The abortions will happen anyway, and the lives of women will be lost in the process. So don't give me "life is precious". If you think this is good news for anyone, you don't give a shit about life.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2020 14:06

good news for babies

Good for babies that they'll be born to mothers who can't look after them?

This is good news for nobody.

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