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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Poland bans almost all abortions

171 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 17:16

Frightening,

'Poland's top court has ruled that abortions in cases of foetal defects are unconstitutional.

...

Once the decision comes into effect, terminations will only be allowed in cases of rape or incest, or if the mother's health is at risk.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54642108

OP posts:
CaraDuneRedux · 22/10/2020 22:52

@DidoLamenting

Abortion in Poland presumably was already very restricted / virtually impossible.

Poland has a population of 37.97m yet only had 1,000 abortions last year. England and Wales have a population of around 61m and 205,295 women had abortions in 2018.

Would be interesting to know the figures for "exported" abortions - as I said upthread Polish friends tell me women just go over the border into Germany.
teawamutu · 22/10/2020 22:56

@bathsh3ba

Well, I disagree with those of you who think the woman's rights are automatically more important every time. And I think there are worse things in life than carrying or being an unwanted baby or carrying or being a disabled child. Neither of which means I think abortion should be illegal but I do wish we could find more alternatives and save more lives. And I'm out because this discussion will go nowhere good when we disagree on something this fundamental.
Effectively, this approach means forced birth. Women legally compelled to go through pregnancy and give birth.

I've had an abortion. It was not pleasant, but I have never regretted it for one minute. I made a careful and considered decision that I wasn't capable of parenting at that point, and I believe i was the only person in the world qualified to make that specific decision.

I've since lost pregnancies and grieved beyond reason, and birthed dearly beloved children who've made life complete, incredible but BLOODY HARD.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't want any abortions to happen, fix every societal problem that might cause a woman to not want to be pregnant/have a child first. And then be prepared for some women just to not want to and really get your head around what you're imposing on them.

Voice0fReason · 22/10/2020 23:05

it's basically saying her life isn't worth living
As a disabled woman, I completely disagree with you.

Bodily autonomy should be a fundamental right.
No woman should ever be forced to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to a child when she doesn't want to - for any reason.

Hardbackwriter · 22/10/2020 23:05

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else. Or, rather, I do get it, but I am surprised that pro-lifers are so open about their view that abortion is bad because unwanted pregnancies are punishments for women. If you really, really thought that abortion was the murder of a baby you couldn't contemplate a rape exemption. It only makes sense if the 'abortion is murder' rhetoric is a very thin veil for the truth, which is that you see forced pregnancy as an appropriate punishment for women who had sex willingly.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2020 23:31

'I'm probably going to regret posting this on the feminism board but it could be a good thing for some foetuses who might otherwise have been aborted but who actually could live a happy life. My sister is severely disabled and the fact that someone could abort a child with her condition makes me feel sick, it's basically saying her life isn't worth living.'

I don't understand this argument. Someone who is never born is never born. Is it ok to abort when there are no disabilities but not if there are? That makes no sense.

As with NI the turning a blind eye to women going elsewhere shows something weird. Are you against it or not? Out of sight out of mind? Illogical. Makes no sense.

There are often rape and incest clauses but they are window dressing. How on earth do you prove it? Especially within a quick enough time frame. You can't. It's nonsense.

Also it shows that it's all about punishing women and girls.

It's just a no no no. The only reason for not wanting abortion is because you see women's lives as trivial and their judgement as poor. And are happy to expose them to the risks of unsafe abortion to prove some kind of point.

It's base misogyny.

Delphinium20 · 22/10/2020 23:33

It infantilizes women to say they can't make these difficult choices. Most women who abort over fetal abnormalities had planned and/or very wanted pregnancies, so, like most abortion decisions, these are not made lightly by women. However, it is the WOMEN who should decide.

Delphinium20 · 22/10/2020 23:35

It also denies agency and reasoning to women who have been raped but choose to have the baby. Not all women who are raped choose this, but apparently, governments love to tell women the right reasons and the wrong reasons to have children.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2020 23:38

Voice of reason I have a congenital abnormality as well.

It has really screwed me up tbh. Being different. Lots of time in children's hospital. Lots of pain. Being told I'd be in a lot of permanent pain and lose mobility by my early 20s when I was a young teen...

If I hadn't been born what would it matter? I wouldn't know, would I. I really don't get it.

I understand for those with children with disabilities it's a really sensitive topic. But nevertheless. That's how I feel.

tofuschnitzel · 22/10/2020 23:47

There are protests taking place in Poland right now in response to this ruling.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2020 23:54

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-37540139

2016

They have been trying to roll back rights for years. And women have been fighting.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2020 23:55

Seriously read that BBC link it's v informative.

nepeta · 22/10/2020 23:55

@tofuschnitzel

There are protests taking place in Poland right now in response to this ruling.
That is good to hear. And it reminds me of the importance of having a name for the affected group of people. It is women, or at least female-bodied people, who are affected, not some random group of 'people who can become pregnant'.
NiceGerbil · 22/10/2020 23:56

'What was noticeable was the level of support for the protest. On the streets, trams and buses of Polish cities many women wore black in solidarity with the strike.

Thousands of people braved the rain to join a demonstration in Warsaw's historic old town. Some men helped out, cooking soup and serving sandwiches. The French actress Juliette Binoche tweeted her support for the protest during a visit to Krakow.

What's apparent is that the vast majority of Poles do not want a more restrictive abortion law. In a recent Ipsos opinion poll, only 11% favoured that option.

Almost half said the existing legislation should remain unchanged, while more than a third said abortion should be more widely available.'

NiceGerbil · 23/10/2020 00:01

www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1GZ2LP

More from 2016

The public are not in favour
But they keep at it
For religious and misogynist reasons

Please do read the links. Especially those who say weelll nuance. Find me the nuance in what the government are after.

Nevth · 23/10/2020 00:02

@Hardbackwriter got this completely right, and very well put too.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/10/2020 00:03

@Hardbackwriter

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else. Or, rather, I do get it, but I am surprised that pro-lifers are so open about their view that abortion is bad because unwanted pregnancies are punishments for women. If you really, really thought that abortion was the murder of a baby you couldn't contemplate a rape exemption. It only makes sense if the 'abortion is murder' rhetoric is a very thin veil for the truth, which is that you see forced pregnancy as an appropriate punishment for women who had sex willingly.
Perhaps it makes sense if you view it from a totally patriarchal male perspective? Women's fertility is a thing for males to control; rape breaks men's laws, 'good' men's ownership.
NiceGerbil · 23/10/2020 00:14

Hmmmm.. from a total patriarchal perspective a woman who is raped or a girl who is a victim of incest is in the wrong.

In ? Can't remember a Dutch woman was imprisoned when she reported rape, for having sex outside marriage.

The standard answer for incest resulting in pregnancy is it's her fault as well.

From that perspective the polish Catholic fundamentalist govt probably see themselves as progressive.

NiceGerbil · 23/10/2020 00:16

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

The current polish govt are generous to women.

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 02:58

I'm probably going to regret posting this on the feminism board but it could be a good thing for some foetuses who might otherwise have been aborted but who actually could live a happy life.

And how will you legislate for that? Who assesses the viability of each fetus in utero, the severity of the disability when a great many effects of the congenital defects are not yet clear until birth?

And who gets to decide which condition qualifies for a termination for medical reasons? What quality of life is acceptable and what isn't? What is happiness? How do you quantify it?

This is a system that denies women agency over their own bodies and hands the power to health care professionals. This might be good for some fetuses, but it is bad for all women. Are you prepared to accept the consequences of such a system?

My sister is severely disabled and the fact that someone could abort a child with her condition makes me feel sick, it's basically saying her life isn't worth living.

No. Nobody is saying that here. What we are saying is that it should be up to the pregnant woman to decide whether she wishes to carry her child to term or whether she wishes to have an abortion. And no one else. You have the freedom to decide for yourself. Allow me the same option.

I do think abortion should be safe, free and legal but I wish we could have a more nuanced discussion than 'my body my choice' and a recognition that more than one life is being weighed here.

There is only one life being weighed here. That of the pregnant woman's, who carries a potential life inside of her. The person who is already alive must have agency in this situation, otherwise you deny her personhood.

It is saying that the life of the woman who chooses to abort a foetus like her is more important than that of the foetus, ie her life has less value.

Yes, that is correct. The person who is already alive is worth more than a future person. Whether the future person has a congenital birth defect or not has no impact on this. Whether the future person is perfectly healthy or not, the life of the person independently alive already matters more. And without the pregnant woman, that future person would never be born. It grows inside of her, it is made from her, it is nourished by her body. She is the life giver and so it should be her choice to give this life.

Incidentally, if you talk to women who live with extreme restrictions on abortion, such rules as you seem to yearn for inevitably make an already heartbreaking situation an unbearably cruel one.

Talk to women in the States who in some places have to petition the local community to permit them to access a termination for medical reasons. Who can then be told - at a public meeting where they had to have a hearing in front of the whole town - to carry the baby to term so as to donate its organs when it dies after birth. Even when that baby isn't viable precisely because not one organ has developed as it should. Of course, those in charge of the council didn't really care about that. They also don't care about these children if they survive after birth.

I've spoken to a woman like that, and others like her. Not one decides to have a termination for medical reasons lightly or without due regard.

CharlieParley · 23/10/2020 03:39

This is a system that denies women agency over their own bodies and hands the power to health care professionals. This might be good for some fetuses, but it is bad for all women. Are you prepared to accept the consequences of such a system?

Let me be explicit here. Abortion control systems like this lead to:

  • women and girls being persecuted for unattended miscarriages and stillbirths. In Argentina, several women have been convicted of murder and imprisoned for life for having stillborns;
  • women and girls being damaged for life or even dying as a consequence of miscarriages when doctors refuse to make sure nothing remains in the womb after a miscarriage or in case of a missed miscarriage (the tragic death of a female visitor to Ireland in just such a case was a catalyst in changing its draconian abortion laws);
  • women and girls dying from ectopic pregnancies and other serious health issues in pregnancy because in countries where the life of the unborn is placed above that of the pregnant woman, the balance inevitably tips too far away from valuing the life of the mother and
  • women and girls dying from unsafe abortions, because our need to access an abortion doesn't magically disappear when abortions are illegal.

All you achieve by that is driving these women and girls into unsafe hands. We know this from every country on the planet where abortion is lilegal and we have lots of data from countries where abortion was legalised as to how these deaths dropped. Even if some women can thus be stopped from ending their pregnancy, the overall choice isn't really between being forced to carry a baby to term or being allowing to have an abortion. The choice is between safe and unsafe abortions.

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 23/10/2020 06:12

@CharlieParley

Fantastic posts. Thank you.

highame · 23/10/2020 08:24

I cannot see how this is compatible with the ECHR, which Norway has ratified - Articles 9 (Freedom of Conscience) and 10 (Freedom of Expression).

I think governments no longer care. They enact laws and then leave it to women/citizens to pursue through the courts at great cost and time. Democracy shafted, women's rights shafted, through another route.

JellySlice · 23/10/2020 08:44

@Hardbackwriter

I have never, ever understood the logic of having an exemption for rape but nothing else. Or, rather, I do get it, but I am surprised that pro-lifers are so open about their view that abortion is bad because unwanted pregnancies are punishments for women. If you really, really thought that abortion was the murder of a baby you couldn't contemplate a rape exemption. It only makes sense if the 'abortion is murder' rhetoric is a very thin veil for the truth, which is that you see forced pregnancy as an appropriate punishment for women who had sex willingly.

Control and punishment.

Wherehavetheteletubbiesgone · 23/10/2020 08:54

This is terrible news. It saddens me that courts can make activist decisions like this. Personally I would like completely free choice on abortion. I think it is wrong and for me life begins at birth. I also don't exclusively think it is a women's rights issue. A failed condom for example or an pill not working actually affects both people involved in sex. I can't imagine men appreciating bringing up an unwanted baby too.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 23/10/2020 09:29

Carrying a child to birth is only the beginning. In the case of a child with severe disabilities it is a lifelong care obligation. That care obligation falls disproportionately on women. It’s very easy for others to stand outside the situation telling the woman what to do but none of them are offering to take the care responsibilities off her.

Women must have the right to choose and I believe I have no right to question their choice because I am not the one facing the consequences.

Women have bodily autonomy.

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