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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Poland bans almost all abortions

171 replies

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 17:16

Frightening,

'Poland's top court has ruled that abortions in cases of foetal defects are unconstitutional.

...

Once the decision comes into effect, terminations will only be allowed in cases of rape or incest, or if the mother's health is at risk.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54642108

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Spanielmadness · 22/10/2020 19:55

@bathsh3ba I couldn’t agree more. The amount of children aborted due to birth ‘defects’ is inexcusable

RiseOwl · 22/10/2020 19:57

This is awful. :-(

RiseOwl · 22/10/2020 19:58

@bathsh3ba

It is saying that the life of the woman who chooses to abort a foetus like her is more important than that of the foetus, ie her life has less value.
Well, yes.
bathsh3ba · 22/10/2020 19:58

Well, I disagree with those of you who think the woman's rights are automatically more important every time. And I think there are worse things in life than carrying or being an unwanted baby or carrying or being a disabled child. Neither of which means I think abortion should be illegal but I do wish we could find more alternatives and save more lives. And I'm out because this discussion will go nowhere good when we disagree on something this fundamental.

DisappearingGirl · 22/10/2020 19:58

Meanwhile:

US signs anti-abortion declaration with about 30 authoritarian governments:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/us-trump-administration-signs-anti-abortion-declaration

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 22/10/2020 20:01

@FairFridaythe13th

What is happening? And in Norway it looks like you can get 3 years jail for misgendering someone - and you can bet your boots it will be women filling up the jails. It seems like a worldwide clamp down on women.
I cannot see how this is compatible with the ECHR, which Norway has ratified - Articles 9 (Freedom of Conscience) and 10 (Freedom of Expression).
Butterer · 22/10/2020 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nancydowns · 22/10/2020 20:17

I'm probably going to regret posting this on the feminism board but it could be a good thing for some foetuses who might otherwise have been aborted but who actually could live a happy life. My sister is severely disabled and the fact that someone could abort a child with her condition makes me feel sick, it's basically saying her life isn't worth living

The answer to stopping babies being aborted due to disability is not banning abortion. It's having more support in place for disabled people and their families and it's having less disability discrimination.

My ds is disabled, there is very little support avaliable, everything is a fight and a battle. Everyday there is a new hurdle to jump. Many people abort disabled children because they feel they can't look after them, not because they don't want them or don't love them. Maybe if there was more support, more people would opt to keep their disabled babies.

No one, NO ONE, should be made to have a baby they don't want or can't look after. It doesn't matter what the reason it, whether it's because the baby is disabled or because the mother doesn't feel ready to have a child.

Who's going to look after all these unwanted babies in Poland. They'll probably end up in children's homes. Or maybe, they'll conveniently pass a law that means childless couples from other countries can "adopt" the babies, at a cost of course. Legal baby factory.

MoltenLasagne · 22/10/2020 20:18

I cannot believe the ground we are losing in women's rights. Let's be very clear - the vast, vast majority of abortions for foetal defects are very much wanted pregnancies. Condemning women to deliver babies knowing that their lives are going to be short and painful is incredibly cruel. Forcing women to continue with 9 months of pregnancy with the knowledge that their baby will die is so inhumane as to be torture.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 20:26

It is saying that the life of the woman who chooses to abort a foetus like her is more important than that of the foetus, ie her life has less value.

You would say the foetus is more valuable than the woman carrying it? How come?

And the alternative is forcing women to carry babies to term who may not be viable outside of the womb, or may be in pain or so on. I appreciate you feel strongly about your sister; that's understandable but I think you're projecting onto this issue. Not all cases are the same and not every one makes the same choices or has the same factors to consider.

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ThistleWitch · 22/10/2020 20:51

@bathsh3ba

Well, I disagree with those of you who think the woman's rights are automatically more important every time. And I think there are worse things in life than carrying or being an unwanted baby or carrying or being a disabled child. Neither of which means I think abortion should be illegal but I do wish we could find more alternatives and save more lives. And I'm out because this discussion will go nowhere good when we disagree on something this fundamental.
so you think that a foetus is more important than a womans right to autonomy over her own body, i'll repeat that, her own body
TheHeartbeat · 22/10/2020 21:19

Reminder to everyone that the woman that wasn’t allowed to vote, authority over her own body or chase certain goals is never coming back.

This is all just a wake up call to women of certain country’s to be heard.

Remember these women in Iran only two years ago:

www.google.nl/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-middle-east-44040236

CaraDuneRedux · 22/10/2020 21:28

Depressing, but abortion has been illegal in almost all circumstances in Poland for ages - my Polish friends tell me women typically go over the border to Germany for abortions, a bit like women in Northern Ireland within the UK.

Still gobsmacked at the forced birth language - "not the worst thing in the world to have to carry a baby..."

Gettingonwithlife · 22/10/2020 21:40

bathsh3ba I totally agree with you

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 21:40

Reminder to everyone that the woman that wasn’t allowed to vote, authority over her own body or chase certain goals is never coming back.

I'd like to think this was the case, but I see women's rights sliding in various places.

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nepeta · 22/10/2020 21:42

From the outside it looked to me that the power vacuum created in Poland when the Berlin wall fell down was mostly filled by the church and right-wing politicians. The kind of country they wish to build is necessarily built on women staffing the home (as well as working for money if needed) and having lots of children. Everything else follows from that. Hierarchical societies seem to always focus on making certain that women can't climb very high.

But that is from the outside. I have been awed by the resilience of Polish women and how they managed to stop this from happening twice.

CaraDuneRedux · 22/10/2020 21:44

Women's rights are very very precarious.

Aside from issues round the effective decriminalization of rape, and forced speech in this country, I'm very, very worried about the future of women in the workplace here. Another lockdown, or widespread school closures, and an extremely high percentage of women are going to lose their jobs.

nepeta · 22/10/2020 21:45

@CaraDuneRedux

Depressing, but abortion has been illegal in almost all circumstances in Poland for ages - my Polish friends tell me women typically go over the border to Germany for abortions, a bit like women in Northern Ireland within the UK.

Still gobsmacked at the forced birth language - "not the worst thing in the world to have to carry a baby..."

That way of thinking ('not the worst thing') would apply to all pregnancies, obviously, and so no abortion would ever be allowed unless it is when the pregnant woman will otherwise die.
Betheanne · 22/10/2020 21:51

This is a different time than any time in human history. Men do this at regular intervals but this time we have pills that can be sent through the mail. I've been thinking about stealth packaging. So many battles but back straight and head high.

Coffeeoverload · 22/10/2020 22:07

@bathsh3ba @Gettingonwithlife
I’m guessing you’ve never been in the position of needing to make this heartbreaking decision? I have, and I wouldn’t wish it on my mortal enemy.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2020 22:21

Flowers Coffee.

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CaraDuneRedux · 22/10/2020 22:24

And Flowers from me coffee - watched a close friend go through that and it's the most heart wrenching experience.

nepeta · 22/10/2020 22:26

@CaraDuneRedux

Women's rights are very very precarious.

Aside from issues round the effective decriminalization of rape, and forced speech in this country, I'm very, very worried about the future of women in the workplace here. Another lockdown, or widespread school closures, and an extremely high percentage of women are going to lose their jobs.

I very much agree about the workplace impact of the lockdowns and what is connected with them. Surprisingly, Twitter activists are not focused on the very real possibility that women's (as a class) incomes, jobs, promotions and retirement benefits are all suffering more than those of men's as a class.
Coffeeoverload · 22/10/2020 22:29

Oh gosh, thanks ladies ❤️

DidoLamenting · 22/10/2020 22:50

Abortion in Poland presumably was already very restricted / virtually impossible.

Poland has a population of 37.97m yet only had 1,000 abortions last year. England and Wales have a population of around 61m and 205,295 women had abortions in 2018.