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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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The strategy of relinquishing the word "woman"

218 replies

GratedExposure · 20/10/2020 12:01

This is something I wonder about in a number of contexts (I'm not advocating it, just wondering): is anyone thinking that the best strategy here is to leave the word, and begin to label certain awards/events as "natal female" awards/events?

I know there are many arguments against this (first, why should we be having to start fighting anew for things which should never have been taken?). But at what point do we walk away and start again? The most obvious example is sport, because if there were "wom*n's" events (increasingly colonised by males) and "natal female" events, most of the strong female athletes would surely opt into the latter?

Are any organisations working towards this?

It's basically the same as the third space idea, but we'd be having to be the ones moving to a third space (wrong, but maybe better than the alternative...)...?

Is this crazy talk?

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NewlyGranny · 20/10/2020 15:25

So that's agreed then. It's a no. We inherited the words woman, women and girl(s)unadorned with prefixes and we use them that way.

Nothing nasty but nothing mealy-mouthed, conciliatory, cringing or apologetic.

We calmly correct people who miscall us - there's plenty of precedent for that - and we happily add 'and transwomen,' or 'and transmen,' as appropriate to show we are inclusive, as in "Women and transmen are eligible for cervical screening," or whatever.

Once we adopt another term, those of the same activist mindset will just come for that, so...🤷🏼‍♀️

EvenSupposing · 20/10/2020 15:28

This reply has been deleted

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EvenSupposing · 20/10/2020 15:30

@NewlyGranny

So that's agreed then. It's a no. We inherited the words woman, women and girl(s)unadorned with prefixes and we use them that way.

Nothing nasty but nothing mealy-mouthed, conciliatory, cringing or apologetic.

We calmly correct people who miscall us - there's plenty of precedent for that - and we happily add 'and transwomen,' or 'and transmen,' as appropriate to show we are inclusive, as in "Women and transmen are eligible for cervical screening," or whatever.

Once we adopt another term, those of the same activist mindset will just come for that, so...🤷🏼‍♀️

I agree.

Except that you can add them if you want to but Hell is going to freeze over before I say 'and transmen' when talking about women's issues.

Cascade220 · 20/10/2020 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jux · 20/10/2020 15:42

(The Latin word trans means: 'across, beyond, through, changing thoroughly'.)

I expect I'll be deleted for this, but surely then transwoman would be applicable to women who identify as men, rather than the other way round? The woman would have gone beyond womanhood......

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 20/10/2020 15:49

It was trying to be nice and considerate that got women into this position where they are barely hanging on to anything left with their fingernails. Trying to play fair with a group that have no intention of playing fair or showing reciprocation isn't 'nice' or 'kind' or 'being the bigger person' or 'strategic' - it merely convinces them that you are a mug without boundaries who can be pushed even further.

Sadly true.

BrassicaRabbit · 20/10/2020 16:16

Whilst on the one hand, the word female is increasingly used by people who are not female to describe themselves, on the other, use of the word female can get a woman banned from twitter (for tweeting "only females get cervical cancer"). It's almost as if the people pushing this assault on language and blurring of boundaries are doing so for a reason that's actually got bugger all to do with the rights of trans people.

Kaiserin · 20/10/2020 16:26

I'm personally ok with thinking of myself as a (100% gender free) "female person", and have no sentimental attachment to the words "woman" and "girl".
But many women and girls feel otherwise, and I stand in solidarity with them.

My personal redline is "female", but the redlines of fellow female human beings are also my redlines, so... "woman" and "girl" must be protected as well.

PostItJoyWeek · 20/10/2020 16:30

I agree with pretty much everyone above

Plus the word woman exists in laws, regulations, policies, legal precedent, common understanding. If you change the meaning of the word woman then the meaning of those laws changes.

So nope that would be daft. Why create all that hassle to change everything to be "natal women"? The impossibility of going back and rewriting all those regulations is what the TRAs are banking on. They redefine woman and thus all the laws that gave anything exclusively to women now give it to men who want it too. If you tried to do a massive find and replace on "woman" to "natal woman" they'd then redefine themselves as natal women because muscling in is the actual goal.

PotholeParadies · 20/10/2020 16:32

@BrassicaRabbit

Whilst on the one hand, the word female is increasingly used by people who are not female to describe themselves, on the other, use of the word female can get a woman banned from twitter (for tweeting "only females get cervical cancer"). It's almost as if the people pushing this assault on language and blurring of boundaries are doing so for a reason that's actually got bugger all to do with the rights of trans people.
And here's the screenshot.
The strategy of relinquishing the word "woman"
ErrolTheDragon · 20/10/2020 16:39

I simply cannot comprehend how that is considered 'hateful conduct' but so much vile misogyny is allowed to stand on twitter.

Dervel · 20/10/2020 16:57

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AryaStarkWolf · 20/10/2020 17:00

@DaisiesandButtercups

Boundaries comes to mind. Girls are so often brought up to be so “kind” and polite and to put others before themselves. We are not less than others. We can say no and mean it. We can have boundaries. If we stand together we can enforce our boundaries, even against men who hate us and seek to destroy us. We are women. We can’t just keep moving up for them until we fall off the edge of a cliff.
hear hear!
ErrolTheDragon · 20/10/2020 17:02

Blimey - I'd not scrolled back, I hadn't realised how many deletions there were. I don't remember seeing much other than women asserting their rights. Confused

CharlieParley · 20/10/2020 17:02

Is this crazy talk?

It's not, GratedExposure, for many of us this was a way station on our way to a more resolute position.

It comes from a good place, this notion, but like so many other good intentions, it leads to a decidedly hellish place.

When I first took an interest in this debate, I thought all this talk about female erasure and war on women was hyperbole, OTT, dramatic even. Now I wish it was.

Back then - a scant three years ago - female was an uncontested word in the debate just emerging into the public mainstream discourse. The idea that a fair compromise was enlarging the definition of women to accommodate men claiming womanhood was in full bloom. Usually accompanied by reassuring claims that where the discussion focused on sex, we had the word female to fall back on.

But the foremost trans rights campaigners and queer theorists had already established a new battleground around that very word and sex itself. Most likely because it seemed that the word woman had been successfully claimed by the other side.

Whatever you do in this debate, however you can or will contribute in however many tiny or large ways, you must be aware that the publicly declared end goal of the movement is the complete erasure of sex as a legal concept from all laws, policies and practice worldwide.

They will not stop at the word woman because that is a mere way station for them on their way to erasing sex.

Principle 31 of the Yogyakarta Principles plus 10 sets this out in detail. On the legal battlefield, laws like the UK's Gender Recognition Act are a first step in that direction. The introduction of self-declaration of sex through self-id laws and policies is another. The linguistic battlefield includes all references to sex as distinct classes, not just the words woman, man, boy, girl. The endpoint are random groups of people who have random individual features in common - people with a cervix, people with a prostate, people with ovaries, pregnant people, people with testicles, people who produce sperm.

No longer two distinct, mutually exclusive sex classes, male and female, but many disparate groups of people who share one biological feature or function but otherwise have nothing in common. Not interests or needs nor rights and especially not discrimination and oppression.

The end goal of erasing sex as a legal concept leads to abolishing women's sex-based rights. Any compromise like the one you are mulling over leads us on a straight path to that world.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/10/2020 17:10

Great post, CharlieParley

No longer two distinct, mutually exclusive sex classes, male and female, but many disparate groups of people who share one biological feature or function but otherwise have nothing in common. Not interests or needs nor rights and especially not discrimination and oppression.

How about these activists put their efforts into ending sex-based discrimination and oppression first? We'd love to see an end to the chromosomally determined caste system.

HPIEX · 20/10/2020 17:11

I'm sorry I don't see your PoV. How long do you need to be a transwoman before you are a woman? It takes about 17 years of girlhood and all its associated experiences to be a woman. They are not physical anomalies they are real differences in body and brain biology and chemistry.

NewlyGranny · 20/10/2020 17:12

Colonisers gonna colonise. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Delphinium20 · 20/10/2020 17:12

Another way to look at is to wonder why we are all so squeamish to use "sex" as a the clarifier. There is the male sex and the female sex and because the function of these differences solely exist for the reproduction of the human species, it's silly to pretend sexual reproduction isn't the heart of this difference. All other differences, choices or similarities are due to personalities, culture, feelings, genetics, etc. Those differences are why we say to our children, "Be yourself! You don't need to conform to societal expectations."

I get that gender reveal parties may be impacted by insisting on the word sexWink, but I'd prefer to live in a world that used "sex reveal parties," to a world that says, "you were born in the wrong body because gender...."

Antibles · 20/10/2020 17:22

Making people say that 2+2=5 is totalitarian control. It is done on purpose to show that their boot is on your face.

What michelle says about playing nice only identifying you as a mug whose boundaries can be further breached is spot on.

Floisme · 20/10/2020 17:37

@ErrolTheDragon

Blimey - I'd not scrolled back, I hadn't realised how many deletions there were. I don't remember seeing much other than women asserting their rights. Confused
Absolutely bizarre. I can never remember deleted posts very well but I do know I was about to post on the first page that ItsAllGoingToBeFine had said everything I wanted to say. But I was called away and now I've come back to see that post has gone. Confused
Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 20/10/2020 17:42

Nope
Inch mile etc (& for me it’s not an inch it’s more like a light year)

Women are adult human females & transwomen (not my preferred term...) are not.

Dreeple · 20/10/2020 17:50

“Transwomen simply are” anything but!

EvenSupposing · 20/10/2020 18:15

@ErrolTheDragon

Blimey - I'd not scrolled back, I hadn't realised how many deletions there were. I don't remember seeing much other than women asserting their rights. Confused
I had a post deleted for talking abpit deckchairs Confused

Goddamn you transphobic dogwhistle beach furniture

EvenSupposing · 20/10/2020 18:17

Totally the sign of a rational world though.