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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

490 replies

bunters · 20/10/2020 10:17

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

OP posts:
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TheMarzipanDildo · 20/10/2020 13:57

“while I appreciate you can show concern for things that don't concern you, it's not my experience of the great British public. We voted Tory for heavens sake!“

For some reason, in all of OPs disingenuous posting on this thread, this is what annoyed me the most. I didn’t fucking vote Tory Grin.

It’s called having empathy, anyway, and I think most people have it to some degree. I care about women in prison- they are often from deprived backgrounds and vulnerable. And usually not in prison for violent crime.

Also, one of my friends is a trans man, 5’2, and only at the start of his transition. I would not think a men’s prison would be the best place for him.

PotholeParadies · 20/10/2020 14:04

Also, one of my friends is a trans man, 5’2, and only at the start of his transition. I would not think a men’s prison would be the best place for him.

Absolutely not. Never ever, and that's the horrifying flipside of saying transwomen should automatically go to the female estate.

SaucyHorse · 20/10/2020 14:05

People saying ignore, yeah it's true that OP is unlikely to change her mind today. But if those niggling doubts she clearly has about prisons and sports keep niggling and she gives herself permission to really think those heretical thoughts and get to the end of the process, she actually is quite likely to change her mind in the long run, depending on how much she has publicly invested in supporting the other side. Quite a lot of people have come full circle on this issue.

What's more important, though, is that there are loads of people reading this board who aren't posting. Who are just reading and thinking and maybe giving themselves permission to consider the possibility that there is a problem here. It's not just a conversation with OP, this is public.

I came to this board originally (about 5 years ago) because I'd been thinking to myself for a while 'hang on, this can't be right, surely this doesn't actually make sense, surely this isn't feminist?' and trying to gaslight myself by reading as much TRA stuff as possible. I really wanted to make it make sense. Then I gave myself permission to search out people who were thinking the same forbidden private thoughts as I was, and my god it was a relief to let go and stop trying to believe something I just couldn't.

These kind of threads are quite good for lurkers because the OP will trot out all the things that are the accepted official 'good people' beliefs and they can then read posters more eloquent than myself counter those and raise awareness of problems they might not have thought of.

Kantastic · 20/10/2020 14:10

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Quaagars · 20/10/2020 14:12

thats so bizarre coming from someone who 'totally agreed' with that totally messed up nonsense about people refusing to accept people are trans

Some do though.
Someone on the thread has said "why should I accept that they're women?"
How do you settle the conundrum there - on one hand you're saying it's messed up nonsense to say that people are refusing to accept trans people, then in the next breath people are saying "we do not accept they're women?"
Which is it then?
"You" (as in general you) either do or you don't.

Kantastic · 20/10/2020 14:15

They cannot imagine it as it so beyond their own experience that they will go to any length to deny their very valid but different life experience

This is classic projection, isn't it? This is someone who can't imagine that their own experience of themselves as somehow being the opposite sex does not preclude others from experiencing them as the sex they actually are.

It's someone who is genuinely unable to imagine experiences different from their own; someone who is barely able to wrap their head around the concept that other people beyond themselves even have experiences and subjectivity.

Llyn · 20/10/2020 14:17

trans hysteria

Ha! Nice one OP.

MingeofDeath · 20/10/2020 14:19

This reply has been deleted

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 20/10/2020 14:22

@bunters

I'll read the break it down for me post and see if that sheds any light on my confusion, but for those of you posting JK's essay, it was that that got me so annoyed. She justifies her actions because she was domestically abused by her cis male partner. How does using the language 'people who menstruate' instead of women affect domestically abused women? Lots of women don't menstruate, some trans men do, why is that controversial? She could have done anything (literally anything, the woman is a billionaire and was very popular before this) to help women, but nows she's known for trans exclusionary language. What a waste.

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces? I read about boys supposedly pretending to be trans to gain access to girls bathrooms and I have to say it sounds a little far fetched, and even if it's true, it's surely rare? And even if not, what do they do once they're in there? Look at them? Do we ban gay women? If they actually attack someone then that's a crime and it's dealt with accordingly. I don't know about you guys, but for me the girls changing room at school was an absolute nightmare and boys had nothing to do with it.

There are genuine issues surrounding trans rights, that should be able to be discussed in a rational way. For instance trans people in sports. I'm no expert on that but I can see why it might concern people. Trans people in prisons. I can see why someone would be motivated to pretend to be trans to avoid men's prison, and how such an individual would be a danger to women in prisons. But I don't find these examples to be in alignment with most people's interests. Most of us aren't profession sportspeople or in prison, and while I appreciate you can show concern for things that don't concern you, it's not my experience of the great British public. We voted Tory for heavens sake!

You're seriously saying we should give up key safeguarding measures like having separate toilets and changing rooms for women and girls and single-sex dorms on school trips, single sex refuges etc etc on the grounds that if self-ID is abused and a crime is committed it will be dealt with? Good grief.
  1. The criminal justice system in this country has an appalling record on tackling sexual assault.
  1. How about preventing crimes from happening in the first place? All over the world the UN and charities that work in developing economies campaign for women's and girls' toilets and here in the richer countries some women are saying 'Yes, but it's different here, we don't need them. On behalf of all other women I'm giving you permission to make them mixed sex.'

Well, on that issue, you don't speak for me.

Also, because most of us aren't top flight athletes or likely to go to prison, we should just shrug our shoulders and look the other way while our fellow women are sidelined in their chosen sports or put at risk in prison? No.

The suggestion that we should ban lesbians from women's spaces is beneath contempt. Lesbians aren't the ones being convicted for 98% of sexual crimes. The fact that some women and girls are nasty to others of their sex is unfortunate, and nobody would deny it, but it's not the same as the life-threatening risks females face from predatory males.

One final note about prisons. Half of the male prisoners who now identify as women are convicted sex offenders. The %age of male prisoners who are sex offenders is way below 50%. Now, either they are abusing the system in the hope of getting transferred to a women's prison or for reasons of their own, or this group has an unusually high incidence of sex offenders. It's got to be one of those. Either way, alarm bells should be ringing, but they aren't. The feelings of males, even convicted sex offenders, are placed above the physical safety of women prisoners.

Helmetbymidnight · 20/10/2020 14:24

huh? its not difficult- i wonder if youre deliberately misinterpreting this or you actually really have no idea of what gc feminists have been saying.

the post you totally agreed with said this:

there are those who refuse to accept peoole can be trans. they cannot imagine it...they will go to any length to deny their valid blah blah

this is bullshit because most people accept people are trans- most people understand that yes, there are men who'd rather be women/who identify as women- they are known as 'transwomen'-

but they are not women. they are men.

how on earth is that a connundrum?! i dont get it. it is an entirely logical position.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 20/10/2020 14:25

Thats my understanding helmet

HawthornLantern · 20/10/2020 14:27

A timely thread for me. On a different website (a US one) I saw a casual quote from someone who said that JK Rowling and her writing and other side lines for Harry Potter couldn’t be supported any longer. I asked why and was told JK was a TERF, that "Rowling has been outspokenly anti-trans, specifically in regard to statements along the lines of cis-women shouldn’t have to accept trans-women as women at all.” The evidence for this view was JK’s tweet one Maya - the one ending "Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?”

I pointed out that I too agreed that biological sex was real and pointed to issues around medicalisation of teens, some of the prison issues that have arisen, reduced protections for young or vulnerable women and some of the recent decisions in cycling and rugby with the effects on women. This is a pretty small site so this didn’t get much further reaction - except for 4 rolled eyes, 3 thumbs down, one angry face and one bullshit. So the idea that JK is a ranging transphobic (and presumably so am I) because of the odd ideas I cling to on biology and the need to find safe places for everyone but not at the expense of each other is, well, bullshit. If biology is so bullshit, why don’t I find people queuing up to take on my 6 years and counting of peri symptoms?

Sorry, this is just a rant, but it is this board that has really helped me keep my sanity. I am predominantly a lurker, but I am so very grateful for the articulate posters here.

Datun · 20/10/2020 14:28

Most of us aren’t women in prison so why are we bothering to try to protect them from being housed physically male bodied individuals who have been convicted of serious sexual crimes?

Well I seem to been deleted for the same sentiment. Or was it the swearing? Okay, then, I'll just have to get specific to avoid deletions.

OP do you agree that people like violent rapist, Karen White in my post above, are given access to incarcerated women, (who were subsequently sexually assaulted), as part of his sentence?

Do you agree that the women in the women's shelter should have been able to refuse to be housed with a male who uploaded naked photos posing in their bathroom boasting of sexually intimidating them?

What about the woman who went for her smear on the NHS, and whose notes said she was transphobic, because she objected to a male bodied individual, with stubble, touching her genitals? Do you agree with that?

Do you agree that Jessica Yaniv, a Canadian transwoman, who has expressed interest in helping 10-year-old girls with their tampons, should be able to sue beauticians for not waxing his scrotum? Many of whom subsequently went out of business as a result.

How about the transwoman running a female psychiatric ward, who posts endless selfies in PVC 'sexy nurses outfits'?

What about the women who have to put up with males masturbating next to them in a homeless shelter, because those males are really women?

How about Vancouver rape refuge which has been defunded, because it refuses to admit males, either as counsellors, or clients. It had a dead rat nailed to it's door, despite the fact that it is only one of all the rape refugees in Vancouver, which excludes men.

A dead rat. Nailed to a rape refuge. Because it's trying desperately to protect women who have already been raped.

It is the only one which has withstood targeting. Do you understand what is happening here? Everywhere that requires women to be protected on the basis of their sex, is targeted. Even, or perhaps especially, rape victims.

You'll find all these examples on the numerous threads you complain about in your OP.

If you think there is no need to establish sex segregation when women are vulnerable, having been raped, assaulted, or incarcerated and can't escape, have their knickers round their ankles, are naked, need searching, or need intimate medical procedures, perhaps you could explain why.

There aren't many occasions when women require sex segregation. But when they do, they should have it. It's not complicated.

You deciding that a certain cohort of men, indeed, the very men who are insisting on access and ignoring women's boundaries, should be given a free pass, is misogynistic.

You raised J. K. Rowling. She has received literally thousands upon thousands of threats. Most of them sex based funnily enough. Here is a fraction.

All she has said is that she has been the victim of domestic and sexual abuse and understands the need for women to be able to name their sex, politically, biologically and linguistically, so they can address the issue of sexual assault on women and girls. And that they need spaces based on sex segregation. In this instance, to recover.

I sincerely hope you do go away and read the links provided.

It's a measure of how women are being censored, that I have had to check my post to make sure it remains within guidelines. Fortunately, HQ have confirmed, that where someone is a criminal or a predator sexual or otherwise, correctly identifying their sex is completely. acceptable.

Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!
Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!
ODFOx · 20/10/2020 14:31

@bunters
This isn't about whether or not trans woman are violent or whether or not a trans woman is as likely to be a risk to a woman or child as someone who is born male but doesn't feel like they should have been born female.

It's about women.
Women who don't want to share spaces with anyone but women. Women who, until 1992 in this country did not have the right to a toilet in their workplace. Women, who, until 2003, did not have the illegality of Marital rape written into UK law.
But if a man says he feels like a woman he MUST be allowed into the same rape crisis centres and any traumatised women and children must be re-educated to accept the male appearing person there?

If a man says he feels like a woman he MUST be moved from a men's prison to a women's one in spite of the fact he may have ( and sadly based on the stats surrounding transgender prisoners probably has) been guilty of violent and or sexual crimes?

The issue is the protection of women and the protection of women's rights. The self ID legislation as proposed provided no safeguard to tell the troubled dysphorics from the evil bastards, and the rhetoric spun by the hard line TRAs did nothing to reassure.

Without self ID we already see experienced politicians being forced out of women's roles for snowflake teens with no experience of womanhood, let alone politics. Without self ID we are already seeing awards for women being given to men who wear a dress a couple of days a week.

Self ID as proposed would allow anyone to claim trans privilege and enter women's space: it effectively removes even the current right of enquiry.

Your final sign off was a challenge that if we had time to push back against the people posting threatening images and saying that they will kill or punch or bat women who disagree with them, then we should be doing more to support women and what are we doing? We were all doing a hell of a lot more before we had to fight to keep a women's toilet in our town so that the old ladies could visit the library. Or attend meetings to discuss the justification for the women only night shelter in our town or n case it offended someone.

If you are a women, are you really so blind to what you are being asked to give up, on what was so recently won?

Shame on you.

It does not matter if it is men or trans women doing the talking: if they are trying to take away women's rights then it is appropriate that we push back.

Why don't all the transpeople push to make all the gents changing rooms, loos, clubs and sports teams unisex?
Because women have always been the ones to make room. Well fuck that. I'm squashed already.

Datun · 20/10/2020 14:34

And, tedious though it can be to keep reiterating exactly why women are human beings, and not just tools of validation, threads like this do serve a purpose.

Lots of people are still coming to this without knowing much about it. So examples, links, evidence are useful.

And of course, people seeing the perfectly normal comments being deleted is a real eye-opener for them.

EyesOpening · 20/10/2020 14:44

It’s not even just female prisoners being raped, imagine going to work and being raped because you weren’t protected the best you could have been
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8211325/amp/Female-prison-officers-raped-inmates-self-identify-trans-women-claim.html

Quaagars · 20/10/2020 14:44

And of course, people seeing the perfectly normal comments being deleted is a real eye-opener for them

Perfectly normal.
Right, OK.
"If you see any transphobia report them" mantra gets trotted out - when it does get deleted, it's "perfectly normal comments!"
It's always explained away, isn't it? In a move on, nothing to see here way...
Troll hunting and personal attacks are never allowed on all the other boards as well, not just here.

MingeofDeath · 20/10/2020 14:48

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RedDogsBeg · 20/10/2020 14:57

There was nothing remotely transphobic in my comment that was deleted. Those monitoring this board just don't like to see the cold hard truth of where their ideology leads and how they care not one jot about those who suffer appallingly as a result of it.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 20/10/2020 15:03

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yourhairiswinterfire · 20/10/2020 15:03

@Quaagars

And of course, people seeing the perfectly normal comments being deleted is a real eye-opener for them

Perfectly normal.
Right, OK.
"If you see any transphobia report them" mantra gets trotted out - when it does get deleted, it's "perfectly normal comments!"
It's always explained away, isn't it? In a move on, nothing to see here way...
Troll hunting and personal attacks are never allowed on all the other boards as well, not just here.

Datun's post was deleted for posting a picture of Karen White and telling the truth about Karen. No transphobia there, it was just inconvenient for the champions of locking penis havers up with women.

It's sinister people trying to prevent the truth from outing. That trawler website Scumsnet had 'safeguarding' tagged as a transphobic word, so outsiders could mass report posters who talked about safeguarding on this board.

Nowt to do with transphobia, all to do with censorship.

wellbehavedwomen · 20/10/2020 15:07

If you've met trans people, you know they pose zero risk to anyone else. And those that do are a minority, just like there are Catholics who rape children, or Muslims who commit crimes, etc. You know the story. Marginalised groups get painted in the same light by those who dislike 'different'.

@Dogsareus trans people pose the same risk as anyone else. Not more, absolutely. So transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as any other male. The evidence for that is very clear - there are more transwomen in prison for sex offences than women, not because transwomen pose any more threat than anyone else male, but because they pose no less. And women commit just 2% of such offences. Women commit dramatically fewer violent offences, especially sexual offences. Women are also smaller and less strong than men. So we have separate provision, in recognition of those facts.

Do you think that women who want spaces separate from male people are hateful? Do you think women who don't walk home alone at night, especially in isolated spaces, or who arrange to meet online dates in public places, or who don't want to share a communal changing room with males or who don't want an intimate examination performed by males are hateful? Do you think they are unfairly demonising all men because of the actions of a few? Or is that reasonable? And if it is reasonable, why is it unreasonable, as soon as a man says they assert a feminine gender identity? What has changed, that her previously socially acceptable and rationally based actions are suddenly deemed hateful?

It's not hateful to recognise that while most men pose no risk to women, the majority of those posing such a risk are men. And nor is it hateful to recognise that the risk is based on bodies - not claims to gender identity. It's not discriminatory for women to ask that our own rights, needs and protections are retained. In fact it's really sexist to argue otherwise.

We need parallel provision. Not for one group to erase the rights, and even the very descriptors and legal definition, of another, as is being demanded at present.

If women can no longer be defined as a sex class, we can't collectively argue for our rights. If 'women' is suddenly a mixed sex category, how can we assert rights based on the structural, systemic ways in which women's biology renders us vulnerable to discrimination and exploitation?

It's really shocking to me that women speaking up for our rights - because women are abused and exploited across the world, and through history, for our reproductive and sexual potential - are subjected to death and hate threats, and job loss, and those women are then the ones being called hateful. How is the misogyny of that position so invisible to you? You think that any man should be able to access all women's provision at will, and any woman who says that's not okay with her is a bigot? Seriously?

Men's Rights Activism seems to have gone very, very mainstream.

And yes, I do know trans people, most of whom are perfectly nice. But you can use that argument to say women don't need any single sex provision at all. Why don't you?

nearertonature · 20/10/2020 15:11

I can see why someone would be motivated to pretend to be trans to avoid men's prison, and how such an individual would be a danger to women in prisons. But I don't find these examples to be in alignment with most people's interests

Well at least you are honest that egocentricism means you don't care about other women being raped as long as you are not at risk.

Or perhaps you are being honest that you only want to hold views that you think the majority of people hold.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 20/10/2020 15:17

It is always nice when we can feel self righteous and good about ourselves by catering to the opinion of the day. Especially if there is no personal downside whatsoever....

OldCrone · 20/10/2020 15:17

@Quaagars

thats so bizarre coming from someone who 'totally agreed' with that totally messed up nonsense about people refusing to accept people are trans

Some do though.
Someone on the thread has said "why should I accept that they're women?"
How do you settle the conundrum there - on one hand you're saying it's messed up nonsense to say that people are refusing to accept trans people, then in the next breath people are saying "we do not accept they're women?"
Which is it then?
"You" (as in general you) either do or you don't.

Not a conundrum at all, as has already been explained to you. I accept that some people are unhappy with their sex and wish they were the opposite sex. This doesn't mean that I believe that they can change sex.

But you appear to believe that people can change sex and want others to believe this too. 'Transwomen' are male, because only male people can be 'transwomen' (I think I am correct in saying that female people cannot identify as 'transwomen'). So if you believe that 'transwomen are women', then you believe that people can change sex. And yet they can't. Why do you insist on trying to impose your belief system on others?

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