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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

490 replies

bunters · 20/10/2020 10:17

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

OP posts:
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Quaagars · 21/10/2020 16:15

But Quaagers, you say you're a woman, so you don't have to imagine what having your very existence debated is like. It happens to women all the time

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2020 16:18

@Quaagars

But Quaagers, you say you're a woman, so you don't have to imagine what having your very existence debated is like. It happens to women all the time

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

We've been round this loop before. It's not about you.

It's about the existence of women as a distinct class, defined by our biology.

The thread started with someone accusing JKR for starting a 'bizarre war' or suchlike .... for having the temerity to object when women can't use the word women to refer to matters specific to women's health and biology.

DialSquare · 21/10/2020 16:19

No one wants you to pop out of existence Quaagars. You're doing a great service for our cause.

PostItJoyWeek · 21/10/2020 16:26

Nobody thinks that human being who are trans will pop out of existence either if their actual biological sex is acknowledged.

What did you mean by existence denied?

Winesalot · 21/10/2020 16:37

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

Deja vu?

Quaagars · 21/10/2020 16:42

@DialSquare

No one wants you to pop out of existence Quaagars. You're doing a great service for our cause.
There's been an awful lots of comments along the lines of we're being erased, if they're women, then I can't be too though. You might not feel erased or that they're not a woman anymore if trans women are, but it's clear a lot of people on here do.
RedDogsBeg · 21/10/2020 17:07

It's about the existence of women as a distinct class, defined by our biology.

I don't know what your problem or issue is Quaggars if the definition includes those who don't fit the definition then the class the definition refers to no longer exists as a distinct class, it's really not that hard to understand is it.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/10/2020 17:18

Quaagars
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

Such a shame that transvocalists can't be as laid back as you clearly are! Nobody, after all, is denying their existence; what some people are saying is that while they exist, they exist as trans women.

DialSquare · 21/10/2020 17:26

It would appear you misunderstood my comment Quaagars. Never mind.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 21/10/2020 17:28

Oooh, @Quaagars since you are back on the thread maybe you will do me the courtesy of answering the question that I took the time to ask you in the name of debate? I'll just copy and paste it again for you:

On what basis do you 'accept transwomen as women' if you know that they are biologically male and you can't change sex? How, then, are they women? I don't understand!

Quaagars · 21/10/2020 17:29

It would appear you misunderstood my comment Quaagars

Nope.
I just have a different opinion (quelle horreur)
Never mind.

DialSquare · 21/10/2020 17:34

We all know you have a different opinion. Sometimes you even have a different opinion to yourself.

Quaagars · 21/10/2020 17:41

We all know you have a different opinion

So why the insistence from some that just need to go and read and people will help "see" better if ask nicely, or from yourself that I've just misunderstood?
Why can you not accept that I don't have to agree with you?

DialSquare · 21/10/2020 17:42

Well if you understood my original comment as you said, you would also understand that I'm very happy for you to carry on here with you different opinion.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 21/10/2020 17:46

Why can you not accept that I don't have to agree with you?

You don't have to agree, but you do kind of have to back up what you are saying, if you are partaking in an online discussion.

So, once again:

On what basis do you 'accept transwomen as women' if you know that they are biologically male and you can't change sex? How, then, are they women? I don't understand!

Datun · 21/10/2020 18:52

@DialSquare

We all know you have a different opinion. Sometimes you even have a different opinion to yourself.
🤣

You have to, to argue that black is white, except it's black because it's not actually white, except it is white, but not when it wants to be black...

Confused
DialSquare · 21/10/2020 19:04

Indeed Datun!

testing987654321 · 21/10/2020 19:32

So I see quags hasn't replied as to what makes them think transwomen are women.

I'm going to risk suggesting they haven't answered that because there is no basis for it.

I am struggling to think of something that I consider a fact that I wouldn't be able to justify rationally.

Winederlust · 21/10/2020 19:38

@Quaagars

But Quaagers, you say you're a woman, so you don't have to imagine what having your very existence debated is like. It happens to women all the time

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

So if others debating the existence of females doesn't bother you (and ignoring the fact that it's not just about you but also the other approx. 4 billion females on the planet), why should you care whether debating the existence of trans people bothers them (ignoringthe fact that nobody actually is)?
lenaperkins · 21/10/2020 20:26

@bunters

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces? I read about boys supposedly pretending to be trans to gain access to girls bathrooms and I have to say it sounds a little far fetched, and even if it's true, it's surely rare? And even if not, what do they do once they're in there?

twitter.com/CarlBrownisback/status/1292908123913584641

twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1234230311564840960

twitter.com/dkgf01/status/1292915379992485889

twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1298389741637980165

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 21/10/2020 20:28

Is bunters still reading do we think?

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 21/10/2020 20:29

The break it down threads i mean

Quaagars · 21/10/2020 20:32

Clicked on that top Twitter link - not quite sure how that relates to what you've actually quoted of Bunters, where they asked for evidence of taking over women's spaces - it just reels off a list and pictures of some trans women from what I can see?

Quaagars · 21/10/2020 20:35

Plus two of the Twitter links are the same ones/the same person tweeting the same list of pictures?

OldCrone · 21/10/2020 20:36

@Quaagars

Clicked on that top Twitter link - not quite sure how that relates to what you've actually quoted of Bunters, where they asked for evidence of taking over women's spaces - it just reels off a list and pictures of some trans women from what I can see?
Are you talking about the one with the rapists and paedophiles? Are you suggesting that allowing them into women's spaces wouldn't put women and children at risk?

Please explain your reasoning.

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