Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

[bunters]

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

birth sex aligns with your insides? - what exactly are you trying to say here?

what is aligning with what and how do you know if someone is aligning or not?

How is me accepting trans women meaning that I'm suddenly a subset of woman?

We are now discussing the use of cis. We are not discussing acceptance of transwomen, I think that you know that most of the posters on this thread accept transwomen exist. If you don't understand the logic of how forcing a prefix before a term used to define women moves the term down a language hierarchy, that is your issue to resolve.

If you've met trans people, you know they pose zero risk to anyone else.

What is a 'trans person' for the purposes of this sentence? At what point does a person become 'trans' and therefore pose 'zero risk'. We know men as a class are high risk, so at what point does a male who 'identifies as a woman' come out of that high risk class of male? Is it just on their say so? Sounds watertight....

Also, by your logic, we needn't bother with DBS checks either, because some people slip through the net anyway and we should always believe people are who they say they are, so we don't need to do background checks?

Dunno about you, but a lot of my reproductive system is inside my body. All my other organs, my bones and indeed every single cell of my body is female too, which is relevant in many contexts. My sex is much more than just my vulva.

@Quaagars

But you appear to believe that people can change sex and want others to believe this too

No, I fully accept that trans women are biologically male, and trans men are biologically female, as you can't literally change the sex you were born.
It doesn't mean I can't accept trans men as men though and trans women as women.

This just bears repeating.

This is an example of what happens when you want to change language to serve an ideology, but then can't use the exact same language to talk about reality.

It's the lack of logic, and deployment of smoke and mirrors that comments like this demonstrate.

@jellyfrizz

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

Seriously???? How?

How is me accepting trans women meaning that I'm suddenly a subset of woman?

What do you mean by 'accepting trans women'? What are you 'accepting'?

bunters (OP) wrote - "The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way... what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?"

If transgender ideology did not promote the removal of women's rights then gender-critical feminists would not have to divert time and effort away from other feminist issues.

For example, transgenderism ideology has created the idea of the cotton ceiling (a concept which is based on transgenderism ideology's homophobic belief that homosexuality is same-gender-identity-attraction not same-sex-attraction and that lesbians should be socially ostracised or even criminally prosecuted for not accepting sex with "lady-penis"). If gender-critical feminists did not support lesbians in their struggle against the lesbophobia that transgenderism ideology has created, they would have more time and energy to address e.g. the Indian rape crisis or the UK rape crisis.

Women and girls across the world need sex based rights not gender-identity based rights. Transgenderism ideology blocks the ability of feminists to oppose the oppression of female people. Transgenderism ideology opposes the idea that feminism is the liberation of female people from patriarchy, and replaces it with the idea that feminism should be the centering of transgender people who feel feminine, which is then used to support the idea that the oppression of women occurs because women don't feel masculine enough (i.e. because the victim has a feminine gender identity). It is useless to tell a raped woman in Dehli or Darlington that she was raped because she identifies with feminine stereotypes, which is what transgenderism ideology demands. No, she deserves to be told the truth - she was raped because of her biology and the oppression she has suffered, since birth, based on her sexed body. Transgenderism ideology and its "feeling feminine" nonsense directly obstructs feminists in our efforts to obtain more rights for female people. Transgenderism ideology also negatively interferes with the feminist fight to just keep the sex based rights, which women thought we had already obtained. All of this is why transgenderism ideology should have no place in feminism. Feminism should not centre transgender people who feel feminine. Feminism should centre criticism of the way that transgenderism ideology is the most effective harmer of women's rights since women were given the vote.

Are you going to share a report of your recent discussions with the Indian government summarising your plan for how they should solve the Indian rape crisis and how they have responded so far to your ideas

... or are you just going to respond by (a) not replying or (b) "moaning on mumsnet" (which is what you accuse gender-critical people of doing) by continuing to minimise the harm that transgenderism ideology does to women and girls?

As I said, threads like this are often quite useful.

@Datun

As I said, threads like this are often quite useful.

^ This was an addendum to my own comment, not that of vesuvia, sorry.

No, I fully accept that trans women are biologically male, and trans men are biologically female, as you can't literally change the sex you were born.
It doesn't mean I can't accept trans men as men though and trans women as women.

So what is your definition of 'man' and 'woman' then? Clearly you don't think it has anything to do with biology so what is it then?

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

How is it transphobia to accept trans people as trans?

I agree, it’s transphobic not to accept trans people as trans.

I was answering the question, actual transphobia makes it hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Dunno about you, but a lot of my reproductive system is inside my body. All my other organs, my bones and indeed every single cell of my body is female too, which is relevant in many contexts. My sex is much more than just my vulva.

I was about to say something similar SaucyHorse - my whole physical self is female. And I'm an adult, therefore woman. Not "cis" anything.

@Quaagars

Cis has no connotation at all of moving or not. It means objects literally, spatially, being on the same side. That's all

On the same side - so your birth sex aligning with you inside then - hence, not trans. On the same side.

Well, yes, your birth sex, what's between your legs on the outside

So on the outside you either have a vulva or a penis. Then inside, someone with a vulva probably has a uterus, and someone with a penis probably has a prostate? Is that what you mean?

The only people for whom this wouldn't be true are some of those with DSDs. So are they the only people who are not 'cis' according to this categorisation? So nothing to do with 'not trans' at all, since most 'transmen' have female organs (external and internal) and most 'transwomen' have male organs (external and internal).

Clearly you don't think it has anything to do with biology so what is it then?

biology is only your outside part of your body not your skin but like your penis. whether you are man or woman depends on whether the inside of your body (eg your lungs and liver) aligns with your penis.
and thats the key word aligns
so eg if your vulva aligns with the rest of your insides your a privileged cis.
amiright?

@jellyfrizz

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

How is it transphobia to accept trans people as trans?

I agree, it’s transphobic not to accept trans people as trans.

I was answering the question, actual transphobia makes it hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Oh I see.

I really think accepting trans people as trans is key to ^reducing' transphobia, as it will hopefully normalise being trans. And then trans people aren't so on edge about whether they pass or not, or if they're going to be outed.

The illogicality of this ideology is here in bucket loads.

Quaggers states that they accept no-one can change sex but that transwomen are women and a subset/part of the female sex category - BUT a transwomen's birth sex is male, that can't change therefore they must remain a subset/part of the male sex category.

Are you going to share a report of your recent discussions with the Indian government summarising your plan for how they should solve the Indian rape crisis and how they have responded so far to your ideas

Good point vesuvia.

Also OP while you are answering my earlier question on what you have done to progress women's rights, maybe you should also include how it is helpful for activists to abuse and harass victims of FGM about using the term 'female genital mutilation' to describe the horror of what was done to their bodies?

You have seen that in your extensive reading on the conflicts of women's right haven't you? You do realise that even girls and women who have suffered such atrocities cannot talk about this without being shut down, and harassed off social media. Apparently, they do not have the right to discuss their trauma in a way that a) is helpful to them, b) enables accurate discussion of their needs and the need for protection and c) allows them to concentrate on getting something done.

And.... it is NOT actually women that are trying to silence them.

biology is only your outside part of your body

Wrong. All of your cells contain DNA with 23 pairs of chromosomes including the chromosomes XX (female) or XY (male). These were decided at conception and remain fixed throughout you life. The only exceptions are the sperm or egg cells because each parent provides one set of 23 chromosomes to make 23 pairs.

@jellyfrizz

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

How is it transphobia to accept trans people as trans?

I agree, it’s transphobic not to accept trans people as trans.

I was answering the question, actual transphobia makes it hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

I think I see what you are saying, my next question would be why is acceptance of trans people as trans invalidating or denying their existence? Surely it is the polar opposite yet those accusations are flung round with alarming regularity.

I would very much like to know how the transgender issue is benefiting girls in Wyoming.

I believe that a bill pushing back a ban on female genital mutilation was pushed back due to concerns from trans activists that minors would not be given sex reassignment?

I feel deeply sorry for the girls who are at risk for FGM, but maybe they don’t matter?

Dogsareus wrote - "If you've met trans people, you know they pose zero risk to anyone else."

Safeguarding rules should not be based on how lovely you think your friends are.