Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

[bunters]

Ok mumsnet, please talk to me. I’ve noticed that the feminist section of mumsnet seems disproportionately preoccupied with trans issues and I’d like to understand it. I opened the feminism chat today and topic after topic related to trans this, gender that

It is an indisputable fact that women suffer horrific domestic violence in this country (and worldwide), at the hands of men. Women are regularly beaten, raped, controlled, murdered and otherwise abused by men every single day. It’s so standard that it barely makes news when it happens, unless the crime is truly shocking.

This whole trans hysteria feels to me like if the government were to start a huge campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of choking on peanuts, while ignoring the huge damage caused by alcohol and tobacco.

JK Rowling has started a bizarre war around the language used to refer women, in the name of women’s rights. With her money and popularity she could have done any number of things to help women in a huge way. What has this achieved, other than pitting feminists against each other? Even if you believe she has a point, surely you can see that whatever ‘danger’ trans people pose to women is minuscule compared to the very real danger men openly pose to women every day?

We all know that men have felt entitled to take what they want when they want for centuries, and they don’t need to dress as a woman to do it. The women gang raped to death (can you even imagine the horror) in India weren’t attacked by men in dresses. I’m despairing of the fact that attention has been diverted from these horrors in such an extreme way.

When I look at my beautiful, tiny daughter I don’t worry about some trans person hurting her, I worry about the very likely situation when a man hurts her. In fact, I’d worry more that she’ll be trans and be hurt by someone before I’d worry about a trans person hurting her. When I walk alone at night somewhere, my mind isn’t imagining trans people waiting in dark doorways to rape me, it’s men. Men being bloody men.

If we accept that men don’t need to be trans and gain access to women’s spaces to hurt us, and we accept that trans people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the rest of the population (and so really are in need of help and protection as much as women), why do trans issues continue to cause such anger?

And if you do feel justified, what tangible thing are you doing to help women, besides moaning on mumsnet and signing petitions?

straight is a colloquialism meaning the opposite of a perjorative isn't it? Should we keep using it? Hetero, bi and homo relate specifically to sexual status and are used logically.

Describing someone as 'not trans' is forcing everyone to have a gender identity which only serves to benefit those who which to claim a gender identity. It has no relevance in the discussion of humans. Like clownfish has absolutely no relevance in the discussion of human sex categories but that trope is rolled out forever to indicate that biology is complex.

The term is not fit for purpose and like many of the linguist aspects of 'gender identity' has been repurposed clumsily.

wish not which

Thanks, Errol; I was trying not get even longer and more complicated, And you've nailed it for me.

I know a lot of people have said not to engage, but I have found this thread really useful. I have been here since the whole JKR 'thing' earlier this year, and I have learnt so much already - but I find it hard to articulate some of the reasoning a lot of the time. So, thank you to the people who have taken the time to explain things in such a rational and persuasive way - especially in the face of accusations of trans hysteria and transphobia.

I don't believe we've ever seen a slightly convincing response to the simple question: 'if trans women are women, how do you define 'woman'.

I'm pretty sure definitions are considered transphobic. I'm still waiting for Quaagars (or anyone) to define 'cis' and 'trans'.

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

I don't think you can define "cis" or "trans" without first defining "man" and "woman", can you? Otherwise one is "having moved or being in the process of moving from a position to another position, where neither position is known" and the other is "remaining or continuing to be in an unknown position."

I'm still waiting for Quaagars (or anyone) to define 'cis' and 'trans'.
Her previous answer (to which I responded.) indicated she didn't understand what Cis actually meant, so maybe unfair to press her for a definition.

@SaucyHorse

Arf.

yup

I don't think you can define "cis" or "trans" without first defining "man" and "woman", can you? Otherwise one is "having moved or being in the process of moving from a position to another position, where neither position is known" and the other is "remaining or continuing to be in an unknown position."

You can certainly define 'Cis' without reference to men or women because it's got nowt to do with them. Cis has no connotation at all of moving or not. It means objects literally, spatially, being on the same side. That's all.

"This whole trans hysteria"

Calling women discussing women's rights hysterical, how novel 🙄

"JK Rowling has started a bizarre war"

She neither started anything nor do I believe her intention was war. JKR posted her belief in the importance of biological sex and some of the difficulties around the claim that "trans women are women".

JKR has clearly been aware of and researching the issues for much longer than you have.

JKR didn't start the conversation, not by a long chalk. Women with less power than her have had their meetings to talk about women's rights repeatedly physically attacked. Windows hit with bricks and yobs shouting slurs. So much so that these meetings have to be arranged with great privacy. Meetings that are to discuss women's rights Women who hold the views that people with penises aren't women are regularly and repeatedly doxxed and threatened with graphic threats of rape and violence. Isn't that nice.

Cis has no connotation at all of moving or not. It means objects literally, spatially, being on the same side. That's all

On the same side - so your birth sex aligning with you inside then - hence, not trans. On the same side.

@jellyfrizz

Why is it so hideous to accept transmen as transmen and transwomen as transwomen?

Actual transphobia.

How is it transphobia to accept trans people as trans?

@Quaagars

Cis has no connotation at all of moving or not. It means objects literally, spatially, being on the same side. That's all

On the same side - so your birth sex aligning with you inside then - hence, not trans. On the same side.

Aligning with you inside???? Aligning with what exactly inside?

Is birth sex on the outside then?

Is birth sex on the outside then?

Well, yes, your birth sex, what's between your legs on the outside, that's your birth sex, right, surely you know that?

On the same side - so your birth sex aligning with you inside then - hence, not trans. On the same side.

And still missing the point that it forces a gender identity onto others so that someone else can define themselves. And define themselves using terms that they have appropriated for their own use without consideration for those people who were already using it.

How easy you dismiss making women a subset of their own group. Which other groups of people would you also like to make a subset of their own group?

@findyourbacon

I know a lot of people have said not to engage, but I have found this thread really useful. I have been here since the whole JKR 'thing' earlier this year, and I have learnt so much already - but I find it hard to articulate some of the reasoning a lot of the time. So, thank you to the people who have taken the time to explain things in such a rational and persuasive way - especially in the face of accusations of trans hysteria and transphobia.

You're welcome, find. Despite these threats being repetitive, and always targeted, they are incredibly useful.

Showing up the targeting, is just as useful. Someone reading about why threads are deleted is very effective.

Anyone can google Karen White. And it becomes patently obvious why a picture of karen white needs to be taken down.

The additional, and just as important, issue that it shows is the censorship.

Lots of people don't get what's going on, but their ears certainly prick up when they realise that info being deliberately withheld from them.

It's on a par with what happened when transgender trend published their schools guide. There were people claiming that it must not be read! It must be shredded immediately! Don't even look at it! Avert your gaze!

So of course everyone wanted to read it.

Far more people read it than would have done otherwise.

It never ceases to amaze me how counter-productive censorship is.

@Quaagars

Is birth sex on the outside then? Well, yes, your birth sex, what's between your legs on the outside, that's your birth sex, right, surely you know that?

Nice try, now how about answering the question about what's on the inside.

So, just a woman, then, if you're born female. Or a man if male. As you were. No need for any prefix if we're right where we started. We all go on calling ourselves what we always did.

Anyone who feels they don't match and wants to change appearances is doing the moving and can have the prefix. We don't all need one.

Linguistic, anti scientific nonsense.

How easy you dismiss making women a subset of their own group

How is me accepting trans women meaning that I'm suddenly a subset of woman?
I'm still just as much a woman as ever.

Cis is nonsense.

I'm not 'on the same side' as woman, I AM a woman. Not a subset of the category - we are the damn category.

Women as a class. You know that really, surely?

Showing up the targeting, is just as useful. Someone reading about why threads are deleted is very effective.
Whenever someone disagrees, or has a different opinion, why do you always revert to "targeting"?
Maybe, just maybe, not everyone agrees with you?
It doesn't always mean "we're being targeted" and yes, it's not rocket science that if a post is a personal attack, troll hunting, or transphobic, they'll get deleted as they break talk guidelines.
If they didn't, they'd stay. Not everything reported gets deleted.