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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Index for censorship plans for dialogue on trans issue

99 replies

Imnobody4 · 17/10/2020 10:27

www.indexoncensorship.org/2020/10/we-need-to-end-the-abuse-around-discussions-of-feminism-and-trans-rights/
We need to end the abuse around discussions of feminism and trans rights

09 Oct 2020

BY RUTH SMEETH

Free speech is difficult. It should be difficult. After all it protects our right to say things contrary to popular opinion. It protects the minority view. It facilitates debate. It provides the legal framework for protest. It allows people to tell their own stories. Most importantly it moves society on.

It’s why we so desperately need to protect our right to free speech, to cherish it and fight for everybody to be able to use it.

Index was founded to do just that. To cherish the concept of free speech. To expose repressive regimes who were censoring their citizenry and, when necessary, stand up against restrictive practices in our own countries. And for the last 50 years that’s exactly what we’ve done.

What we weren’t established to do was to pick a side on any individual issue that is currently being debated in society. It will surprise none of you that I have quite strong personal opinions on most issues and so does every member of our team, but Index’s job is solely to make sure that other people’s voices can and should be heard if they are being silenced. In the words of Stephen Spender, one of our co-founders, to be a voice for the persecuted.

Which brings me to the current discourse on gender and trans rights. I think we can all agree that this has become increasingly toxic. There is limited constructive dialogue, a huge amount of hate and little meeting in the middle ground to discuss practical ways to come together. Far too many exchanges are now less about the issues themselves, and more about whose side you are on – or even worse, about who has the right to participate in the conversation. The discussion has now switched from one embracing free speech to one of informal censorship.

When we talk about a chilling effect in the public space it is embodied by this issue. Some are genuinely scared to engage in any of the issues for fear of abuse. Members of the trans community, who face daily intimidation and persecution, are rarely being heard at all, as others silence them by claiming to speak for them. This is helping no one.

Index will be launching a new work stream in 2021 to build spaces for dialogue on this subject and others so that people can come together to air issues and find constructive ways forward. But in the interim I want to make it clear what our position is.

All women, whether a successful novelist like JK Rowling or a struggling blogger expressing their gender identity, have a right to their opinions and a right to have those opinions heard.

Death threats, online bullying and attempts to undermine people’s careers are unacceptable. We stand against this censorship. We stand in solidarity with the targets of this abuse and we will fight for their right to be heard.

Trans people face daily persecution and are subject to some of the most appalling abuse in society. Their voices, apart from a few limited exceptions, are not being heard. They have stories to tell but they are being largely censored. We stand in solidarity with them and we will ensure they too have a platform.

These positions aren’t contradictory and they shouldn’t be controversial in the UK in the twenty-first century. As ever Index does and will always stand against censorship.

OP posts:
stumbledin · 18/10/2020 15:24

Thanks Maya - I was thinking of adding a comment to the blog post, but then say the info about them joining you case and thought maybe not.

But think it is great you have blogged on this.

I suppose it could just by the Ruth Smeet stance, probably from intensive Stonewall training during her time in Labour.

But for IoC itself not a good look given who they are meant to be!

Thanks to you and others who are going down the court route. Some part of me feels that despite good campaigns, the only way to secure women's rights is by court rulings.

Antibles · 18/10/2020 15:55

@SpartacusAutisticus

Reads like they've taken a side to me.

Why does it not state that the death threats, bullying and undermining careers is directed at women?

This.
Imnobody4 · 18/10/2020 16:14

Absolutely agree with Maya, I don't think it's Index's role to provide a platform for discussion or try to be an 'honest broker' they should be gathering evidence and analysing what is happening objectively from their standpoint of protecting freedom of speech.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 18/10/2020 18:41

Maya thanks for the blog link, your writing is excellent and cuts to the heart of it:

The impression that there is some easily reached middle ground if only someone would convene a non-toxic discussion is only held by those who haven’t tried, or (as in the case of the Fawcett Society and EHRC) have refused to try.

nearertonature · 18/10/2020 19:02

But then suddenly it is made perfectly clear that they have taken a side
It would have been so easy to have had a line mentioning death threats to women, and all the other oppression
But no, they have to show that they too are part of the work rainbow coalition that demands that we must all bow down and acknowledge that the most oppressed are those identifying as trans

This.

puddlemuddles · 18/10/2020 19:07

This looks to me like their attempt to be neutral, to sit on the fence and say they stand with both women and trans activists.

But they fucked it as they've shown they can't bring themselves to actually say the word women: "the targets of this abuse" should read "women" - right? Or, feminists.

Cowardly IMO.

All women, whether a successful novelist like JK Rowling or a struggling blogger expressing their gender identity, have a right to their opinions and a right to have those opinions heard.

Death threats, online bullying and attempts to undermine people’s careers are unacceptable. We stand against this censorship. We stand in solidarity with the targets of this abuse and we will fight for their right to be heard.

Trans people face daily persecution and are subject to some of the most appalling abuse in society. Their voices, apart from a few limited exceptions, are not being heard. They have stories to tell but they are being largely censored. We stand in solidarity with them and we will ensure they too have a platform.

These positions aren’t contradictory and they shouldn’t be controversial in the UK in the twenty-first century. As ever Index does and will always stand against censorship.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 19/10/2020 07:25

I said About 100 women are killed every year in the UK, compared with I think one transwoman?

My mistake. The most recent figures, for the year to March 2019, show 241 women killed, and 429 men.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/13/female-homicide-victims-england-wales

The numbers include 80 women killed by their partner or ex-partner, an increase of 27% on the previous year, and 14 baby girls under a year old. And we already know that domestic violence has further increased this year.

Most of the killers, every year, are men.

ChattyLion · 07/11/2020 10:43

Thread with link to good article today by Trevor Phillips, who is chair of trustees of Index on Censorship:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4072227-The-March-of-Wokeism-Trevor-Phillips-in-The-Times?watched=1&msgid=101535138#101535138

Imnobody4 · 14/12/2020 21:25

Have just watched this evidence to Freedom of Expression Inquiry
parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/7e88434e-40b2-4aaf-8ad8-86ce669553a3

Joanna Cherry questions Ruth Smeeth. I'm so disappointed. Joanna asks can 'Adult Human Female' ever be hate speech and Ruth says it depends.
The section starts 16.00
I'm also sick of the ' language changes' argument. Who decides, language belongs to everyone not a small minority who gets to dictate to everyone else.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 14/12/2020 21:28

Joanna asks can 'Adult Human Female' ever be hate speech and Ruth says it depends.

Oh, ffs.

How can that be 'hate speech'? Only if you completely remove speech from its moorings and utilise the handy 'dog whistle' idea, whereby all words are coded and don't mean what you think they mean, but in fact what someone else far cleverer than you tells you they actually mean.

RozWatching · 14/12/2020 22:47

Oh dear. Not a great appointment for IoS.

NotTerfNorCis · 14/12/2020 23:10

It's not trans voices that are being censored.

TRAs seem to be able to say whatever they want. A feminist says she thinks woman is a biological concept, she can lose her job.

Defaultname · 15/12/2020 01:29

"All women, from the super-rich, super-powerful J K Rowling to the gentle soul who doesn't believe she's got a sex but is exploring gender identities..." or words to that effect. Hardly sums up all women, does it?

Couldn't she have found a better way to be (ahem) inclusive? Perhaps a sentence starting "All women, from mothers on the school-run..."?

UppityPuppity · 15/12/2020 09:06

All women, from the super-rich, super-powerful J K Rowling to the gentle soul who doesn't believe she's got a sex but is exploring gender identities...

Yes I’m left out - I’m not super rich, nor super powerful, or have a gentle soul, but I believe know as I believe in material reality I have a sex and I’m not exploring my gender identity - because I don’t have one.

Joanna asks can 'Adult Human Female' ever be hate speech and Ruth says it depends.

Depends on what Ruth? The right to speak the truth without censorship. Isn’t that the point of you - or have I missed something?

Stating ‘it depends’ offends me Ruth - an Adult Human Female.

Vermeil · 15/12/2020 09:08

I guess we’ll have to see what actions they take.
Ideally it’s a cunning plan to tread carefully, make room for voices of those who are not the usual high profile suspects, anime avatared Twits, misogynist woke dude-bros and general lickers of the glittery boot, but trans people who haven’t found that everything they’ve done has paved their path with rainbows, those who have regrets, detransitioners, those who’ve found aspects of transitioning have actually made their lives worse. They’re still ‘trans voices’ and will be difficult to object to without TRAs coming across as utterly unreasonable and dishonest. It could really take some of the momentum out of the movement and make those on the peripheries look at things with fresh eyes.
Maybe.
I live in hope.

Kit19 · 15/12/2020 09:18

"gentle soul"? oh do fuck off!!

what is it with this endless 'language of the fragile' that happens the moment issues around trans people gets discussed by people in power?

That juxtaposition is a blatant attempt to imply that women are rich and powerful and by extension should acknowledge that power and beeee kiiind whilst people exploring gender identities are "gentle" and by implication sweet fragile creatures who need extra careful kind handling.

explore whatever gender identities you like, wear what you like, use whatever name you like - it does not and will not make you the opposite sex

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 15/12/2020 10:02

in terms of actions and their public stance they do seem to be honorable if uninformed. In the current context that's progress.

But there’s no excuse for people in IoC being uninformed. It’s IoC’s reason for existence.

RozWatching · 15/12/2020 10:11

That would be great Vermeil but I am doubtful. Her blog post and response to Joanna Cherry suggest that she doesn't quite understand what she is talking about, or her role as Index CEO for that matter.

The issue is whether or not we should change the definition of 'woman' in law and policy to mean anyone who says they are a woman.
The current definition is female. In what scenario is that hate speech?
I really hope Ruth Smeeth isn't yet another NGO leader who wants to "get ahead of the law". These people are destroying the credibility of the sector.

Imnobody4 · 15/12/2020 10:14

But there’s no excuse for people in IoC being uninformed. It’s IoC’s reason for existence.
Exactly. Alan Rusbridger ex Guardian editor also one of the witness panel pulled a Philip Pullman. I really don't under stand the trans debate. Seeing as this is causing the most vicious attack on freedom of speech in my lifetime they should bloody well do some proper research.

OP posts:
RozWatching · 15/12/2020 10:22

Kit She didn't actually say "gentle soul".

"All women, whether a successful novelist like JK Rowling or a struggling blogger expressing their gender identity, have a right to their opinions and a right to have those opinions heard."

But yes, weird framing.

Manderleyagain · 15/12/2020 10:24

I'll read the transcripts of the evidence session if I can find them.

It highlights the importance of us submitting our own evidence, to get across the real undermining of freedom of speech in this area of public policy discussion.
If you've been to a meeting that was protested in a way that verged on violent (or was violent), if you meet with other women to talk about this but have to do it in secret, if you feel compromised at work because you can't raise relevant concerns - or if you have just been watching thinking eeek I can't say anything about that publicly - submit to the enquiry.

As for ioc. Jodie ginsberg definitely did understand properly. Trevor Philips also does I think. Smeeth maybe not, but like a pp said, it's their job to understand this.

Defaultname · 15/12/2020 12:56

@RozWatching

Kit She didn't actually say "gentle soul".

"All women, whether a successful novelist like JK Rowling or a struggling blogger expressing their gender identity, have a right to their opinions and a right to have those opinions heard."

But yes, weird framing.

Apologies, I should have made it clearer. She mentions two women to represent 'women'. One is JKR, who is super-rich, does have access to the media, and is seen as privileged. The other one doesn't seem to know that she is a woman.

While I'm not generally keen on pre-conditions for debate, accepting that 'woman' means a grown-up adult female seems essential.

mollscroll · 15/12/2020 14:19

I'm just reading a book about literature written by the dictators of the 20th century. This quote jumped out at me:

Within an established totalitarian regime, the purpose of propaganda is not to persuade, much less to inform, but to humiliate. From this point of view propaganda should not approximate to the truth as closely as possible; on the contrary, it should do as much violence to it as possible. For by endlessly asserting what is patently untrue, by making such untruth ubiquitous and unavoidable, and finally by insisting that everyone publicly acquiesce in it, the regime displays its power and reduces individuals to nullities

Index on Censorship should get a copy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 14:33

The other one doesn't seem to know that she is a woman.

Or might not actually be a woman.

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