Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

RFU clears TW to play at *all* levels of rugby

352 replies

Kit19 · 14/10/2020 13:01

the absolute fuckers!!!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
FairFriday · 15/10/2020 13:18

But how can you tell? What does that feel like? And if it’s just ‘it feels different to how it was’ then it ‘wasn’t’ what to start with - what was it then?

And if the answer is ‘it’s now different’ how can you tell if it’s not the feeling of a tree or a gnat or a brick?

I’m no philosopher, but I’m not really ‘getting’ this. Maybe I’m not bright enough but I can’t convey this ‘feeling’ and I’ve had 50 years of ‘feeling it’.

Antibles · 15/10/2020 13:29

Dug.

Sick of this total cowpat.

OldCrone · 15/10/2020 13:29

@testing987654321

My body right now is more female than male,

I saw that too, and thought no it bloody isn't.

There are two possibilities here about someone who says this. Either they really believe what they're saying or they don't.

If they don't believe it they're chancers and liars.

If they do, then they are suffering from a delusion that taking opposite sex hormones or having their genitalia modified or even putting on a dress and a wig makes them actually change sex.

I don't understand why anyone would say such a thing when it reflects so badly on them (although if it's because of the second option, then they can be excused somewhat as it indicates mental illness).

Winesalot · 15/10/2020 13:34

@testing987654321

My body right now is more female than male,

I saw that too, and thought no it bloody isn't.

Yes, I picked that up too.

As has been said before.... just because TW are not winning the sports they are in doesn't mean it is fair to let mediocre men take the place of women who deserve that spot.

And Blaire is seriously deluded that they, a goal keeper with a coaching background and all that male oriented football opportunity has no advantage over women. Or... is the team they play for happy to use this advantage for their own purposes? Like the Kent cricket team?

Is there an element of this being enabled by females seeking to take advantage of this for their team's prestige? Or am I missing something?

WarOnWomen · 15/10/2020 13:47

Thanks FindTheTruth for the open letter template.

There was already a petition started in February because apparently English rugby are in a terrible state and this petition is to sack the Board and be replaced. Well, I for one am not happy with the Board so I have signed. Anyone else?

www.change.org/p/rugby-football-union-rfu-board-should-be-replaced

Yourpartjewishfriend · 15/10/2020 13:54

This winds me up. Men are born with far more advantages than just hormones... they have better strength, endurance, bone size and density, physical leverage, cardio and less chance of musculoskeletal injury...

Not to mention the lived experience of living and training as a man for years.

This is why men and women compete in separate competitions. Let's just do away with women's sport all together.

I'm furious and I'm only an amateur runner and hockey player, if I was professional and depended on this for my career I'd be heartbroken

DonkeySkin · 15/10/2020 13:56

YY, Michelle and Edge.

And we can phrase it even more starkly:

Consider the difference between the phrases:

'Trans women are women'

and

'Men are women if they say so'

The first has a hypnotically recursive power, the second is an obvious absurdity.

It is in the end ALL down to language and the way it shapes perception. That's why the TRA lobby is so fanatical about enforcing their Newspeak. They understand that if others were to use plain language, the irrationality of what they are pushing for would immediately become apparent.

What is curious is that feminists don't seem to understand what the TRAs know implicitly. Most 'GC' feminists (including here) use 'trans women' or 'transwomen' unproblematically, seemingly without realising how profoundly they undermine their own arguments every time they do so. It is odd, this feminist supineness around handing the word 'woman' over to men, while at the same time trying to argue that men aren't women. Perhaps it is unthinking feminine deference to propriety, or perhaps it is more a conscious choice, with many feminists sincerely believing that people will be more open to their arguments if they demonstrate submissiveness to the 'correct' language norms.

In truth though, once you've linguistically moved men over to the woman category (via 'transwoman'), it's already over and done. Now the onus is on women to justify why we should be allowed to exclude this particular group of 'women'.

So on the question of how did we get to the insane place of sporting bodies letting men play women's rugby? It's easy: men renamed themselves 'transwomen', and thus it became morally impermissible to keep them out of anything reserved exclusively for women.

Callmejudith · 15/10/2020 14:10

The RFU's safeguarding policy stats gender AND gender status as protected characteristics not sex

www.englandrugby.comdxdam/be/be534275-22c1-44c6-9d6c-05257e318b97/SafeguardingAdultspolicyandprocedures.pdf

TheABC · 15/10/2020 14:14

I would be asking pointed questions about insurance. Because it's only going to take one incident for the insurers to look at the research and think twice.

Mrsorganmorgan · 15/10/2020 14:15

Dr Nicola Williams on Talk Radio now talking about this

Antibles · 15/10/2020 14:22

Dr Nicola Williams being brilliant.

FindTheTruth · 15/10/2020 14:28

@Mrsorganmorgan

Dr Nicola Williams on Talk Radio now talking about this
Timestamp - scroll back/ scroll to 14:10pm
FindTheTruth · 15/10/2020 14:30

I can't (can) believe that RFU were at the same World Rugby meeting seeing all the comprehensive science laid out and common sense, only to ignore it.

Antibles · 15/10/2020 14:40

Totally agree about language donkeyskin. Pity MN deletes accurate language.

Can't believe it either findthetruth. But there's more to it than facts when these kind of apparently insane decisions are made. I am feeling very cynical right now.

gardenbird48 · 15/10/2020 14:52

What is curious is that feminists don't seem to understand what the TRAs know implicitly. Most 'GC' feminists (including here) use 'trans women' or 'transwomen' unproblematically, seemingly without realising how profoundly they undermine their own arguments every time they do so. It is odd, this feminist supineness around handing the word 'woman' over to men, while at the same time trying to argue that men aren't women. Perhaps it is unthinking feminine deference to propriety, or perhaps it is more a conscious choice, with many feminists sincerely believing that people will be more open to their arguments if they demonstrate submissiveness to the 'correct' language norms.

good point. I started using it when discussing such people as it seemed the easiest way not to get banned from here but I have noticed the effect on thinking as it automatically puts people into the wrong 'box', you know its the wrong box but something deep (and primeval?) in your brain reacts to it in a certain way so I have tried to stop doing that now and use a more neutral term.

Anyway DS and DH, both keen rugby fans/players both think that England rugby have lost their minds. They have the information/evidence for sex segregation already - they separate the youngsters at 12 (or thereabouts) - so what changes in adulthood?

Kit19 · 15/10/2020 15:00

I agree DonkeySkin but isnt there something about the moderating that stops us being as blunt as we like? I may be wrong and I try to use male bodied or male born people or men who call themselves women as much as possible but I thought that could earn a ban....

OP posts:
MaryLennoxsScowl · 15/10/2020 15:00

I’m starting to understand why Emily Davison threw herself under that horse now. If we had a few brave martyrs willing to insist on their right to play on the men’s team, the problem would suddenly stop being a women’s problem. You can bet it’d be taken seriously as soon as men had to worry about the safety implications too. After all, it’s clearly discrimination to insist that a transman meet the same physical standard as men before being allowed on the team.

OldCrone · 15/10/2020 15:20

@Kit19

I agree DonkeySkin but isnt there something about the moderating that stops us being as blunt as we like? I may be wrong and I try to use male bodied or male born people or men who call themselves women as much as possible but I thought that could earn a ban....
Like you, I try to to avoid the use of any term like 'transwomen' which implies that men who think they are women are actually a type of woman.

There was a term which was often used on here until the new rules were brought in. I'll quote from the Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex:

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’.

This particular term was targeted by TRAs as unacceptable, and DonkeySkin makes it clear why they targeted this term.

stillsomewhatsheldonesque · 15/10/2020 15:22

There will be no need for anyone to throw themselves under a horse.

There will be no need for willing martyrs either.

There will be enough unwilling martyrs being injured by walloping great brutes on the rugby field.

What surprises me is that men want to identify as women when they do their damnedest to weaken our rights at every opportunity.

For those who really truly desire to be female, why is it acceptable to ride roughshod over the hopes and dreams of women just so you can flourish?

I wonder what percentage of men have had FULL reassignment surgery when competing in female sport?

It would be interesting - if that was a pre-requisite for competing - how many males would then wish to identify as female when they can’t cut it in the male competitive arena?

I try very hard to live and let live. I fail miserably when my rights are continuously eroded.

DonkeySkin · 15/10/2020 15:23

I agree DonkeySkin but isnt there something about the moderating that stops us being as blunt as we like?

Yes. I'm not talking only about here though. It's everywhere. Fair Play for Women uses 'transwomen' in their own materials - no one is forcing them to do that. Same goes for forwomen.scot and Women's Place UK. Pretty much every high-profile GC feminist (except IIRC Meghan Murphy) uses 'trans women', including on their own blogs and social media accounts, where they are not constrained by Style Guides.

The reluctance to say 'men' or 'male' is overwhelming and striking. It's often a matter of choosing to defer to propriety, rather than censorship. High-profile GC women were even calling Barbie Kardashian 'she', FFS!

I also often see women contort their language to a truly embarrassing degree in order to avoid saying 'men'. They say 'male-born penised persons' or even just 'penises'. As if the issue is about disembodied penises. Very weird and saps strength and clarity from their arguments. Even 'male-born' is a submissive reflex. It implies that the person was once male but is no longer. Why not just say 'male'?

OldCrone · 15/10/2020 15:25

This post about language is also relevant.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

BettyFilous · 15/10/2020 15:32

I’m starting to understand why Emily Davison threw herself under that horse now.

^ This.

DonkeySkin · 15/10/2020 15:32

The same goes for unnecessary use of 'trans' and 'trans people' when presenting feminist arguments. In almost all cases 'trans' status is irrelevant to the issue under discussion. What is relevant is sex, and it is misleading to frame the argument in terms of 'trans'. We don't want to exclude 'trans people' from women's sport or prisons or shelters - we want to exclude male people, regardless of whether they claim transgender status or not.

MaryLennoxsScowl · 15/10/2020 15:40

There will be enough unwilling martyrs being injured by walloping great brutes on the rugby field.

Yes, but that will be happening in women’s rugby, which as we all know isn’t important. We need it to be happening in men’s rugby too.

Vargas · 15/10/2020 15:42

Donation made to Fair Play for Women. They certainly have their work cut out for them at the moment!