Help please

[sunshinesupermum]

I have two daughters both in their 30s and one is ashamed of me and calls me a TERF because I support JKR etc. Both of them are fully supportive of the trans argument and yesterday my elder daughter retweeted this 'Hey Rosie Duffield. I'm a woman and I'm having my say: TRANS RIGHTS ARE NOT A THREAT TO CIS WOMEN AND YOUR TRANSPHOBIA CAN GET IN THE BIN'

I read Rosie Duffield's interview in yesterday's Times and fully agree with her. This whole issue upsets me greatly because I can't see us coming back from it while we hold such opposing views. It's worse than Brexit for me personally.

They seem to conveniently forget that all women, whether feminists or not, of my era (1970s) had it far tougher than the small number of transwomen who they support today and don't see that our hard-won freedoms look to be erased. (eg threats to abortion rights in the USA). I brought them up to be feminists. They are both university-educated (unlike me) and can argue the hind leg off a donkey.

Any advice as to how to handle this as it sure doesn't look like the trans issue is going away any time soon. Thanks for reading.

Oh is Helen the censorious one on Twitter? Get a life, Helen!

I had this with ds about 6 years ago. He accused me of being a TERF. He was in the 6th form at the time
He's now in his early 20s and has changed his views completely.

I asked why Blackwave's post was deleted and was told it was uncivil.

Incivility eh.

gardenbird48 Helen who?

xxyzz Thanks for these names.

Thanks TeaAndStrumpets! At least DDs and I do agree politically and over Brexitshambles!

What in God's name is uncivil about explaining one's own family situation to a poster with a similar situation?

MN, my own family behave, on this issue, and in my perception, as if they had been part of a cult, allowing no questioning, using scripted answers and using the threat of shunning for continued disagreement.

In turn, my own family perceive me as if I were the caricature known as the T-word.

Please note the 'as if' part of those sentences.

I mention the above so the OP can see our family is also polarised, and to contextualise my advice to her which is:

Choose to maintain family relationships. Do not allow the kids to namecall you (or others in your hearing), and unfollow their social media. Don't be provocative (as they see it) on your own social media. Don't discuss this issue, other than to say 'we will have to agree to disagree'. Focus on conversation that brings you together on common ground.

In my personal assessment, it's not worth the real risk of kids, with what I perceive to be encouragement from their peers of like mind, cutting you off over this.

Wow there's some really atrocious, childish and potentially destructive advice here - and some good stuff.

Glad you're going with more of a peacemaking plan OP rather than trying to wind up yours DDs til they go no contact.

Briefly on the "why can't they just respect my differing view?" - rightly or wrongly your DDs probably think your views are on par with racism or homophobia. You would never expect an anti-racist to respect racist views.

I'd consider getting a separate twitter account for GC content - without your name or photo. Then you can express yourself freely without worrying it will harm your relationship with DDs.

@TeaAndStrumpets

I think it would be a good chance for a lecture on not disrespecting one's mother!

The daughters are in their 30s!!! This is an adult-adult disagreement. The time for lectures has LONG passed.

Oh I agree rombacious, and was being ironic
It would be lovely if our offspring gave us the same courtesy as they extend to others, but I can dream on!

TeaandStrumpets I just wish they would respect my POV as much as I respect theirs, even if I heartedly disagree with it.

I would demonstrate care and respect for people experiencing discrimination and abuse for living as Trans.
And concentrate on the need for respect for free expression and different views.
Rather than debate the rights and wrongs of your differing views.
The more you argue, the more entrenched they will become. I listened to researchers on a R4 programme saying that the more people articulate a viewpoint the less likely they are to change their minds.

I assume that a continuing relationship with your Dds is your primary objective here?

I wonder at which point they would ‘cancel’ you? If they wouldn’t (and I bloody well hope they wouldn’t) then that gives them a valuable experience if having a relationship with someone with different views.

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

I would demonstrate care and respect for people experiencing discrimination and abuse for living as Trans. And concentrate on the need for respect for free expression and different views. Rather than debate the rights and wrongs of your differing views. The more you argue, the more entrenched they will become. I listened to researchers on a R4 programme saying that the more people articulate a viewpoint the less likely they are to change their minds.

I assume that a continuing relationship with your Dds is your primary objective here?

I wonder at which point they would ‘cancel’ you? If they wouldn’t (and I bloody well hope they wouldn’t) then that gives them a valuable experience if having a relationship with someone with different views.

I assume sunshine already demonstrates care and respect!! But thanks for the tip.

Thanks TeaAndStrumpets I do.

Of course a continuing relationship is priority RainingBatsAndFrogs and I don't argue with them but it's very wearying to zip my mouth all the time. Some of the suggestions from pps for questioning my Dds are useful though and that is why I titled the thread 'Help'.

I am in the same situation... but with teen boys.

I meant it as ‘this is as much as I think you can do without making things worse’, not that you aren’t doing these things.

I'd also consider that they might find this thread since you quoted a tweet.

But maybe that's a good thing? You come off pretty well here.

Raining in my oldest grandson's 6th form there were loads of kids adopting new personas, changing names etc. He is too wrapped up in his books and music to spend much time on agonizing about his gender, but his mum has pointed out a lot of the flaws in the TWAW argument. Nevertheless his Twitter feed is full of kids retweeting appeals for "top" surgery, hatred for JKR, etc. He just posts silly stuff and chat about music, but I assume your average teen is swamped in this stuff 24/7. I didn't look again

I agree rombacious it really is best to steer clear of their social media!

Another point which occurs to me is how my own life experience has affected my emotions in all this. I was brought up in a very religious family, but by late teens had decided it was all a load of cobblers and opted out. DH didn't have a religious upbringing. SO we brought our DDs up as atheists, but with a strong moral code of honesty, kindness and fairness. Very left wing as it happens. However we have a huge variety friends, even some Tory brexiteers and don't police their opinions - how rude that would be! I

What grips me, really, is seeing all the coercion and moral blackmail, the guilt trips and castigating of non-believers. Yes, I think, I've seen it all before.

There's a thread on MN about the Tampax ad. So I look on Twitter and DD1 has retweeted it with the following words

Love this! Here for non binary and those transitioning who have periods and don't identify as women. Here for women who don't have periods too

And the Tampax ad in case you've missed it states
Fact: Not all women have periods. Also a fact: Not all people with periods are women. Let's celebrate the diversity of all people who bleed!

I just can't talk to DD atm.

Sorry you have this dilemma OP.

Here for women who don't have periods too

All well and good - but I as a woman who is of child bearing age and should menstruate - but can’t for medical reasons - know full well this doesn’t mean me, it means men.

Solidarity. Mine are too young but I dread the day they become prey to the cult. I’m hoping it may have blown over by then. 🙏

It is tricky as to the people who believe that twaw you are the same as a homphobic or racist. You probably brought your daughter to challenge bigoted views. Can you say you a proud of her for calling it out but that you feel that their is more nuance to the debate and that some of the beliefs around trans are very hompobic and sexist and if she wants to hear why you believe that you would love to chat.

At the moment MillieEppie I'm just too cross that she is blinded this way (as is DD2) and yes I did bring them up to challenge. I can't in all truth tell her I'm proud of her because I really am not. I need to cool down or it will just turn into a row. She doesn't know I've seen her RT anyway.

Redirect them to read Miranda Yardleys site? They can’t speak for trans people and erase his experience of being trans at the same time. He pulls no punches and decimates a lot of the traditional tra’s arguements swiftly.

Also reframe it always as a women’s rights arguement. This isn’t a trans rights issue it’s a women’s rights one, and we have an obligation to protect our rights, and in handing over their rights they are also giving away mine, as a survivor of sexual abuse, and my autistic daughters whose disabilities mean they can’t be polite about ‘they’ when they know the facts that he is for boy and she for girl, and their throwing away the rights of Muslim women, whose religion means they can’t be in a changing room with men and so on. Why do they need to hand over the rights of 52% of the population to the tiny % trans people make up. And the reality of self id means all men get access to our single sex spaces. If transwomen are at such great threat from men then how does making all spaces women transwomen and men? Are they secretly hoping the men attack us actual women instead of the transwomen. Why is it ok for us women with our weaker female bodies to be at risk from men when the much stronger transwomen are at such risk by going into the men’s with them. Of course Miranda has decades of first hand proof that using men’s toilets while trans poses zero threat whatsoever- why do your daughters think they know more about transwomen than an actual transwoman does? Why are they so keen to silence the voice of an actual transwoman, why does your daughters opinion count more than his lived experience of being trans?

Tea- a level psychology teaches the opposite- that the more a small minority engaged in debate the more impact we have on changing their minds. If they see we are committed, consistent and open to debate and explain the more they hear these ideas and start internally analysing their own entrenched ones. The can’t hear how logical we are if we don’t voice it. They can’t see the false equivalency the tra’s preach if we don’t explain it. They can’t be aware of opposing views if we keep them to ourselves. And again, A level psychology teaches that the presence of other dissenting minorities enables others to resist conformity, even if they don’t adopt our exact views they become aware that opposing the majority influence is possible and gain strength from seeing others stand up and say differently. Uni level psychology teaches the same. It’s important to source info on this from credible sources and I’d be inclined to say the psych syllabus still remains more credible and relevant than R4.

Are they secretly hoping the men attack us actual women instead of the transwomen. Why is it ok for us women with our weaker female bodies
This is a scary observation. There seems to be a very spiteful undercurrent in some of the more vehement tirades against us uppity women. As if there is a glee at women having no safe spaces, as if we are an enemy to be invaded.

Floral

So I explain to a young woman who says this, if they were in a restaurant and a man asked for her food when he had finished his own, it would be entirely her own free choice to say yes or not. Then I ask, if the man was asking for the dinners of other women there, would it be inclusive and kind for her to take their food, despite their protests, and give it to the man, and claim that becauseshedidn't mind sharing hers, they should be the same?

I really like that.