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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help please

100 replies

sunshinesupermum · 13/10/2020 12:40

I have two daughters both in their 30s and one is ashamed of me and calls me a TERF because I support JKR etc. Both of them are fully supportive of the trans argument and yesterday my elder daughter retweeted this 'Hey Rosie Duffield. I'm a woman and I'm having my say: TRANS RIGHTS ARE NOT A THREAT TO CIS WOMEN AND YOUR TRANSPHOBIA CAN GET IN THE BIN'

I read Rosie Duffield's interview in yesterday's Times and fully agree with her. This whole issue upsets me greatly because I can't see us coming back from it while we hold such opposing views. It's worse than Brexit for me personally.

They seem to conveniently forget that all women, whether feminists or not, of my era (1970s) had it far tougher than the small number of transwomen who they support today and don't see that our hard-won freedoms look to be erased. (eg threats to abortion rights in the USA). I brought them up to be feminists. They are both university-educated (unlike me) and can argue the hind leg off a donkey.

Any advice as to how to handle this as it sure doesn't look like the trans issue is going away any time soon. Thanks for reading.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 13/10/2020 20:15

What do they think should happen to the female people that are excluded from any space so that male people can take their preferred choice from all the spaces?

The female people with autism, dementia, other disabilities?
The female people who have been sexually assaulted, domestically abused, traumatised?
The female people who are orthodox Muslim, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, Roma Travellers?

What are we going to do with those females from this group who will not be able to access medical care or stay on hospital wards where male people are? Or will stay in life-threatening DA situations because they can't access a refuge? (Mention the MNetter who lives rough in a tent currently and has for months because no single sex refuge). Or will be excluded from society and spaces like gyms, swimming, women's groups when they're mixed sex?

If they don't get the issues or they try to dismiss them then they have not fully 'educated' themselves or looked into the issues, the needs, the situations of these female people they're so readily dismissing, and perhaps need to do some research before they embrace being really rather ableist, racist, xenophobic.

I usually find with dedicated political lobbyists that they will do anything at all to avoid acknowledging that these women exist: once or twice with back against the wall there's been the flat out attempt to say that there's only a few of them (there are a whole lot more of them than there are male people wishing to be in female spaces) and eventually will admit that excluding these vulnerable, marginalised females is acceptable collateral damage for the greater happiness of men. At which point really the sexism and many other isms are so overt that using words like 'kindness', 'inclusion', 'diversity', 'respect', 'acceptance' and 'intersectionality' are just ridiculous. No, however uncomfortable it may be to admit, it's just flat out male supremacism to extend those values to male people while actively removing those provisions from females. The unequal standards are indefensible.

Ask about the cotton ceiling: should females have to learn to 'get used to' sex with people with penises, which is essentially about females having no right to enjoy sex or make their choices and all about providing service to a male person despite it being no more pleasant than something they can 'cope with'? And show them the quotes. This is straight from well known activists who are public figures. Suggest they look up some incel material and do a bit of compare and contrast: what do they notice? What does this attitude express about respect for females, empathy for or healthy relationship values for another person? Consent? Is this the kind of sexual relationship they see as a good thing for both partners equally? Or do they feel that being born female imbues some kind of service requirement and accepting lesser in life for the benefit of those more valuable and important than them?

Are they personally keen to embrace that service? Should their choice mean all women are forced to embrace it?

This is more for you and your internal tool kit than direct suggestions: but it's about helping them realise, they're speaking from a position of ignorance and unconscious sexism. They just don't know yet what they don't know.

MichelleofzeResistance · 13/10/2020 20:22

And the good old 'if you just knew someone who was trans you'd understand' -

yes, you'd understand their needs and feelings.

But you also need to know a female who has experienced domestic violence and living in a refuge while trying to recover from trauma and ptsd triggered by males.

A female from a culture or faith that has barriers and boundaries that can't just be Let Them Eat Caked away by someone with no clue about that reality.

A female with a disability that presents barriers only met by single sex spaces.

A female who can only access some health care from a same sex hcp.

Unless you equally know and understand those needs and feelings, unless you think too of your 'lovely mate' with those needs as well as your lovely trans mate, you don't get the issues .

It works both ways. Kindness and inclusion and intersectionality don't only exist when they benefit male people. And we haven't even mentioned transmen who may often have completely different feelings and needs, which says a lot about how much this is a sex based issue.

The only way out of this is third spaces, where there are mixed sex spaces and retention of spaces for females who can only access those spaces under those conditions. If your values of inclusion and kindness are actually values and not bullshit.

CaraDuneRedux · 13/10/2020 21:09

Ask about the cotton ceiling: should females have to learn to 'get used to' sex with people with penises, which is essentially about females having no right to enjoy sex or make their choices and all about providing service to a male person despite it being no more pleasant than something they can 'cope with'? And show them the quotes. This is straight from well known activists who are public figures.

Straight from the horse's mouth - sit 'em down with Riley Dennis:

Do they think Riley has a reasonable point?

Antibles · 13/10/2020 21:23

If you can't beat them, join them.

Every time they speak about someone they don't know personally and say 'he' or 'she', gently pull them up and say that they mustn't assume the person's gender identity.

BlackWaveComing · 13/10/2020 21:30

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mejon · 13/10/2020 21:52

Sympathies OP. My 14yo DD has called me a transphobic bitch and a 'Karen' in the past month. As someone who read, re-read and re-read all the Harry Potter books obsessively, she's now decided that JKR is a one-trick pony and a crap writer after all. Her best friend at school has two sisters sorry, 'siblings' who identify as non-binary so I'm in no doubt at all where all this is coming from. BF herself has just had all her hair cut off so I'm waiting for the announcement that she too is now NB.

Thankfully I also have a 9yo DD who understands there are two sexes and that you cannot become the other.

DeaconBoo · 13/10/2020 22:24

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DeliciouslyFemale · 13/10/2020 22:50

What on earth has BlackWaveComing said that warrants a delete?

DeaconBoo · 13/10/2020 22:54

Huh. Possibly the c-word, no not quite that one...?
A new one on me.

DeliciouslyFemale · 13/10/2020 23:36

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DeaconBoo · 14/10/2020 00:09

No, obviously she didn't say that!

xxyzz · 14/10/2020 01:42

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BlackWaveComing · 14/10/2020 02:27

Why the hell was my post deleted??!!
God, this place...

TeaAndStrumpets · 14/10/2020 03:47

DD2 aged 37 was extremely upset to discover I was a t*, she kept saying, "but you're such a nice kind person, how can you think these things?" Like she'd discovered my secret life as a puppy killer. We have not had any further discussion, I said we would never agree and the subject has not been mentioned since. I have given up posting on Twitter (how she realised my guilt) so as not to upset her any more. Of course I read her posts - all her friends are academics and you've never seen such a load of pronouns.

I have been trying very hard to let it go, it does one's mental health no good. My DD1 is 41, and a mum, and she is totally on my side, so that does help. She very sensibly doesn't discuss it with her sisterSmile

I agree don't let it sour your relationship. I have bitten my tongue so many times, and the subject bothers me at this time of night. But I guess love conquers all.

sunshinesupermum · 14/10/2020 08:52

mejon DD1 won't buy any HP for DGS1 (aged 8) even though he adores HP.

BlackWaveComing didn't see your post before it was deleted. Feel free to DM me!

xyzz will look out the Magdalen Burns video.

TeaandStrumpets You would not believe how often I have to bite my tongue with both DDs. I won't give up Twitter though, just because DD2 is worried that her friends will see what a TWERF I am! She lives with me so it's better, as some PPs say, not to bring the subject up as it will make life more stressful and unbearable than it already is.

Meanwhile, having slept on it, knowing the power DD1 has over when I can see DGSs, have decided not to confront her directly. I am hoping to see them soon so will keep a list of questions to arm myself with as and when it is more timely to email and see what her responses are.

OP posts:
BlackWaveComing · 14/10/2020 09:05

sunshinesupermum

It's in a quoted post upthread.

sunshinesupermum · 14/10/2020 10:03

Ah! Can't understand why it was deleted.

OP posts:
ariel333 · 14/10/2020 10:35

I've just sent this blog by a trans women to a friend I've been having the same discussion with. www.ginamaya.co.uk/transgender-life/on-adopting-a-more-gender-critical-transgender-activism.html
It's not completely unproblematic but I think it is sensible and points to a middle ground. If a trans women can see that women and trans women aren't identical and that women need their own spaces, they might be able to see that too.

xxyzz · 14/10/2020 10:44

That's awful, OP, that you feel scared of losing touch with your dgcs over this. If that's the case, it sounds like some of the gentler, questioning methods would work best for you - not openly disagreeing, just 'trying to understand'. Wink

Magdalen Berns is, or rather was :( great, but she's not for the fainthearted, so probably not suitable as a first step for anyone who you can't afford to offend.

Do watch her videos yourself, though, as it will increase your confidence in your own views and give you arguments against your dds' points.

xxyzz · 14/10/2020 10:52

ariel333 makes a good point. It's really worth pointing out that many trans people are gender critical - if your dds claim to care about trans rights, ask them why so many trans people prominent on Twitter and elsewhere disagree with them.

So Debbie Hayton, Fionne Orlander, Kristina Harrison, Buck Angel are a few names off the top of my head. Also, what about detransitioners of whom there are again many - Keira Bell is obviously the one in the news at the moment. Charlie Evans is another.

How can they claim to care about trans rights yet contradict trans people or people who identified as trans, many of whom say that TRAs don't help them and are actually undermining their existing rights?

TeaAndStrumpets · 14/10/2020 11:07

Sunshine it must be very difficult if your DD lives at home. I am lucky not to have to behave myself all the time. DH is very good about listening to my rantings!

Sometimes I think that at the moment I should be glad DD2 is spouting the party line. If she were ever to become peaked her career would be badly affected. She is very forthright and would be no-platformed in no time Grin

I am also in trouble for leaving the Labour party and cancelling the Guardian!

talesofginza · 14/10/2020 11:22

Why not engage in some good-natured trolling?

If you are a white British woman, you could invite your daughters over and 'come out' to them as a black Nigerian woman. Wear some traditional African clothes and a headscarf, put on a Nigerian accent and tell them that you've been doing lots of thinking and have realised that you have always been Nigerian inside. You can tell them "the hardest thing about being a Nigerian woman is choosing which clothes to wear", that you are putting yourself forward for a BAME representative role in local civil society groups or at your place of employment, and that you are trying to get 'other' Nigerian women fired from their jobs because they don't acknowledge that you are one of them.

gardenbird48 · 14/10/2020 11:43

There’s some great creative ideas on here - they’ve caught the attention of Helen and this discussion is now being featured on her twitter page (edited highlights of course) gosh!

Malahaha · 14/10/2020 11:45

@talesofginza

Why not engage in some good-natured trolling?

If you are a white British woman, you could invite your daughters over and 'come out' to them as a black Nigerian woman. Wear some traditional African clothes and a headscarf, put on a Nigerian accent and tell them that you've been doing lots of thinking and have realised that you have always been Nigerian inside. You can tell them "the hardest thing about being a Nigerian woman is choosing which clothes to wear", that you are putting yourself forward for a BAME representative role in local civil society groups or at your place of employment, and that you are trying to get 'other' Nigerian women fired from their jobs because they don't acknowledge that you are one of them.

I love this! If you can pull it off, do it! I couldn't; I'd burst out laughing (even though I could quite easily pass as a Nigerian woman. I even wear bright colourful kaftans when I'm at home.)
TeaAndStrumpets · 14/10/2020 12:17

I think it would be a good chance for a lecture on not disrespecting one's mother!