Help please

[sunshinesupermum]

I have two daughters both in their 30s and one is ashamed of me and calls me a TERF because I support JKR etc. Both of them are fully supportive of the trans argument and yesterday my elder daughter retweeted this 'Hey Rosie Duffield. I'm a woman and I'm having my say: TRANS RIGHTS ARE NOT A THREAT TO CIS WOMEN AND YOUR TRANSPHOBIA CAN GET IN THE BIN'

I read Rosie Duffield's interview in yesterday's Times and fully agree with her. This whole issue upsets me greatly because I can't see us coming back from it while we hold such opposing views. It's worse than Brexit for me personally.

They seem to conveniently forget that all women, whether feminists or not, of my era (1970s) had it far tougher than the small number of transwomen who they support today and don't see that our hard-won freedoms look to be erased. (eg threats to abortion rights in the USA). I brought them up to be feminists. They are both university-educated (unlike me) and can argue the hind leg off a donkey.

Any advice as to how to handle this as it sure doesn't look like the trans issue is going away any time soon. Thanks for reading.

I should add that men doing harmful things to women enrages me (obviously) and it was only once it dawned on me that this was the same thing, that my view changed, a bit like one of those bird/rabbit old woman/young woman optical illusion things, in a way

My DD (17) is with me. No issue with any form of presentation or identity, but not at the expense of giving up sex-based protection.

My DS (21, straight, biological male and identifies as male) is full on TWAW, gender identity is not to do with sex, but TW should be able to use women's loos and play women's sport because of discomfort, signing up for queer workshops at uni. Absolutely no logic or critical thinking and feels it very personally when I challenge. I have read things he has given me to try to understand, but they are full of holes and circularity. He either did not read JKR's essay when I asked him to, or has read it but won't talk about it.

I think I am going to major on the dinners and consent angle (thanks PP whose name I can't remember) from now on as I think it is his GF who is influencing him.

i have zero respect for the twaw 'folks' any more- i find them invariably dim-witted misogynists. i find it painful coming from friends, so it must be really extremely painful from your daughters...

iagree with pps, for your well-being- ignore the issue - they'll get it eventually.

The very simple question it always comes back to is:
Do they think biological sex exists, and that in some cases it matters (i.e. it's the basis of the oppression of women)?

If yes, then they are T*RFS.
If no, then they are living in their own reality and I don't think arguing will help.

I'm reading 'Invisible Women', it's excellent and completely fact-based, and is about data gaps and how they affect every aspect of life. I'd maybe get it for them - it's not at all 'gender critical' and sets out how the author refers to sex and gender at the start.

Thanks for the book recommendation DeaconBoo

My boys called me a TERF to my face, because TWAW and the most vulnerable. There was also the “some women are bigger and stronger than men” nonsense to excuse males in female sports. I knew it would end up as a shouting match so before I left the house one morning I printed off all the male bodied people who identify as trans and are competing in female teams or against females, that I could find. I left them on the kitchen worktop and they had definitely been looked through before I came back. They still spout TWAW, except for relationships and sports, so i know they’re will eventually waken up to being woke.

Do your daughters have a male in their life? Father, brother uncle? Would they be ok with this man deciding to become a woman from this day on and now they have to change with him, in the swim change area, gym, wherever. If not why not? If yes can they really consent to that for other women?

Oh almost forgot the obvious one. Are they willing to have a sexual relationship with a trans man, if not why not

There was a brilliant piece by a guy about how men know exactly who women are when it comes to porn, who to rape, who to deny equal pay too etc trying to find it

If I were brave enough I’d love to have a naked male friend walk from the bathroom into the sitting room to fetch something, while they’re there. When they react, just ask them how they know that person is a man and point out that this is the reality of accepting TWAW and permitting them entrance to female only spaces. Point out that less than 15% percent of male bodied people who identify as trans actually have or intend to have, any genital surgery. Tell them that is they don’t permit any male bodied person who claims to be trans the same rights to be naked in a changing female changing room, then they’re bigots.

OMG Babdoc, that’s brilliant, if only i had the courage to say that to my 25 year old daughter, which brings me to the point, this indoctrination has been going on in Universities for a long time, if OP’s kids are mid 30’s

Thankfully, Thesuzle, I never had to convince my DDs. DD1 (who is 31) actually runs a gender critical group for autistics, has been videoed making a speech on the subject on the Mound in Edinburgh, and posts on MN fwr as Suffrajester!

I've had many discussions on the topic with my 13 yr. old son who's called me a terf in the past. The more we talk on the subject, the more he realizes that we actually agree on most things. The real trouble arises when you stop listening to each other and stop communicating.

The main issue that opened his mind was the idea of biological men competing in women's sports. He knows how nonsensical that is since it took exactly one summer for him to start reliably out cycling me. He knows he is much stronger than me now. His friends in middle school are mostly girls and, in some ways, I think he feels protective over them. The idea of guys pushing women around in sports just doesn't go over well with him.

I will also add, however, that I don't think this particular topic is worth arguing over in the grand scheme of things. I would drop it completely and try to re-establish your relationship with your daughter. That would be a constructive thing to do which you'll probably both appreciate. Also, I've found that avoiding social media has made me a lot happier.

Best of luck, OP.

My DDs are 35 and 39 Thesuzie. Not sure where or when they became so indoctrinated as it only really came to the fore over JKR.

Auridon my relationship with both DDs overall is fine and doesn't require 'rebuilding' in any way but I do object to their disrespect of my views. I am not trying to change theirs but they can't seem to see beyond the fact I don't agree nor understand their POV.

As a feminist from the 1970s I am distressed too that they seem to dismiss all that we fought for that they now take for granted. See what is happening in the USA, with Roe versus Wade likely to be overturned, for example.

I have seen people mention, although I haven't been able to find anything on a google search so far (maybe someone can help with a link?), about a woman who lost a sex discrimination case about breast feeding (I think) because now "men breast feed too". What do they think about this sort of thing plus the Barbie Kardashian controversy, being as these are things that will come about because of it all?

Never argue the point with them. That is like trying to batterdown a well defended front door. Ask questions that hint at problems around the edges. It may take a while but giving them something to think about is more likely to get through... Possibly by playing dumb as above.

Personally I find all the talk about toilets and changing rooms a bit of a well-worn path. (Although I'm totally in agreement about not giving away other women's rights!)

That's why I like to stick to the basics.
Is same-sex attraction valid or bigoted?
Can someone's sexuality be changed by how their partner - a separate person - feels about their indefinable feeling of gender?

It's the easiest thing in the world to say TWAW.
I personally don't believe that many such "believers" actually think it, or demonstrate that they believe it. I've seen someone insist that TWAW but then laugh about how they can tell who are men and women by their photos.

If you're asking questions then 'what is a woman' is a good one.

As is 'should women be entitled to single sex spaces' - I asked this of a male TWAW friend a while back and then watched him tie himself in the most absurd knots as he tried to say 'no'.

or even what is "living as a woman", which is what a trans woman is required to do to obtain a GRC?

We've discussed before how the religious angle shouldn't be the only one we go with, but I've had some success with a (real life) example:

Young, observant Muslim woman joins gym that offers a female-only session and loves it. Then TW insists on using that session.

Now she can't go at all. Her ability to use the gym and improve her health has been entirely taken away, so a bio male can select their preference from all the sessions.

Is that fair?

If they argue that religion is old hat they're being a wee bit Islamophobic. And anti-Semitic, as Orthodox Jewish women like my nice neighbours have the same issue.

I find it helps to remember they have found a religion not a political cause.

You can rarely argue someone out of believing in, say, miracles or idea of a god, but you can make them think about whether all priests should be trusted with all children at all times; should heretics be stoned; shall we have religious law in the UK; are super rich preachers genuine or not; what different beliefs exist within your religion, etc.

If they want reality in their life they will start to see it. If they hate reality and want to believe the fantasy then no amount of logic and reason will convince them.

@NewlyGranny

All 3 of my adult children think I'm a TERF but only one has said it to my face. That one also called me bigot, boomer and Karen in the same sentence. They will still want that bank of mum deposit when they come to buy a house, though.

Oh my goodness. How can they talk like that to their own mum? They seem to take it as a personal affront if you don't age with them.

I wouldn't go as far as floral, at least not in one go. In her example of cervix havers, I would only ask " do you think everyone knows what a cervix is?" Or I wonder if everyone knows where their cervix is? To sow the seeds of doubt. Follow up with the rest of the argument over a couple of meetings.

I’m not sure if you have read this speech. It’s blistering. I could read it a thousand times and still feel rage and empathy and increased determination to keep going. I don’t care if you disagree with me or threaten me. I will fight for women’s spaces because we need them.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/men-know-what-a-woman-is-in-holbeck