Julie Bindel - article on allies

[Goosefoot]

Thought people might be interested in discussing this:

[https://unherd.com/2020/10/feminisms-dangerous-new-allies/]]

We've talked about this a lot here - I'm not sure Bindel has really said anything as worthwhile or interesting as lot of the regular posters here have, it seems a little one dimensional to me.

Maybe because she's really stuck on the left-good right-bad thinking and doesn't really consider whether there has been a change within those categories at all, or why the left has struggled with certain problems. It seems to me she sees it as almost random, and if we just take out the TRA stuff things can go back to normal.

That said, I am surprised that no-one on this thread has acknowledged that for people like Julie (lesbian) and me (Jewish), it's not about ideological purity, primarily, it's about safety.

I think this is key and pertinent to this thread. From a trans perspective (which I know you're all itching to hear) these are groups that would see us at best discriminated against and at worst incarcerated, put into camps or executed at the more extreme end of the religious spectrum. Often GC people insist they are not personally transphobic and support trans human rights. Well these groups don't, they think we are an abomination in front of God and should not exist, so when GC people align with them then it makes it very difficult to trust those who claim not to be transphobic. And let's not forget they think the same about LGB people, even if they are prepared to swallow their tongues in the name of attacking trans rights.

I oppose the occupation of Palestine. But I would never enter an allegiance with either Nazis or Islamic fundamentalists against the Israeli government to support that aim. Because I'm not antisemetic and those groups are. It undermines any claims that GC groups make that they are not transphobic if they stand shoulder to shoulder against trans people with those whose aim is the social eradication of trans people in whatever form that takes.

There should be studies into the effect that parental views of gender and sexuality on GD.

I think that most regular posters on these boards would agree that more research is imperative now that we have been told it will be done (although where did the research into the rapid increase in cases previously agreed to go???). I expect that there will be a confirmation that many of the teenage females will be lesbians and many will be autistic. Because that anecdotal evidence that has been reported (and dismissed) has been reported in the UK, the USA and in Australia by very different organizations/people. And I suspect that even if the evidence is robust here in the UK, there will be people who will still seek to discredit it because it won’t sit well with their view of the world. We have seen it with women’s sports and children’s treatments will be the same I suspect.

@raddledoldmisanthropist

Growing up with gender dysphoria in the 80s part of me really wanted to be gay. As much as in the environment I grew up in being gay was abhorrent, at least it was a thing, a community that was liberating itself. In my teens I went to gay male venues, and although I ended up bisexual I realised that I wasn;t like them. That wasn't what was 'wrong' with me, they didn't want to be girls at all and tbh when I tried to gently broach the subject it was clear the gay scene was pretty hostile to the idea of trans people. They didn't see us as men. It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

I've spoken to lots of trans people who grew up around that time. They have similar stories, as well as those who were brave enough to come out being asked repeatedly are you sure you're not just gay, wouldnt you rather just be gay. It's a different thing, I know it's hard to understand for people who havent experienced gender dysphoria but it is.

Anyway thats my last post on the subject before everyone gets on my case for derailting.

It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

And yet you can't see that now it could so easily work the other way.

As we now know, just 161 under 18s were given medical treatment following attending the Tavistock last year.

I think the Tavi needs far more money to see kids quicker, to treat co-morbid conditions and support family so that we get as close as possible to no kids needing medical transition- it's not something we should ever wish on people if it can be avoided.

That said I'm vastly more concerned by the kids who don't get to the Tavi. The ones who order blockers or hormones online. The ones who socially transition without it being part of a treatment plan. I'm sick of having kids tell me that they can just take some pills to become the opposite sex without any clue about the consequences. I'm sick of being told we just have to affirm 'choices' of very vulnerable kids because some twonk counsellor went on a course and now think they understand GD well enough to diagnose and treat it- you wouldn't try that with schizophrenia so why do it with GD?

@jj1968 I'm sure there are plenty of conspiracy theorists jumping on the bandwagon now but most of us are here because we've experienced stuff which isn't right and have not been able to help.

The fact that the feminism board focuses on the harm to women and children doesn't mean that we don't all have empathy with trans people.

I know it's hard to understand for people who havent experienced gender dysphoria but it is.

I'm certainly not going to pretend to understand GD, nor was I trying to suggest it's some simple case of just being gay.

I was saying that in my (second hand, limited) experience homophobia and strict gender roles are often the backdrop when young people decide to transition.

@OldCrone

It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

And yet you can't see that now it could so easily work the other way.

There are more young people identifying as gay, lesbian or bisexual than at any point in the UK's history. That doesn't point to an environment where increased homophobia is causing kids to want to be trans.

In the past few years, there has been an increase of like..2500% at least children thinking they are trans, and thats only the ones who are referred for treatment.

How one can argue about increased numbers of gay kids meaning its unlikely homophobia causes kids to claim to be trans is..weird.

Whole thread is weird, they way its gone anyway. Not bothered about stuff going offtopic, but the way its gone in particular has been really really strange. Even compared to usual!

GrinitchSpinach

Thanks for your very detailed and relevant posts on here too. Its always interesting to get the opinion of someone who is actually from US, on matters concerning the US. Its so different than here, politics wise. I realy must start researching a bit more as I know not much at all about US politics. Seems a bit of a minefield! And sadly, from what I have read, with not much choice at all

Goosefoot, you may for reasons I don't really understand struggle to differentiate between a conspiracy theorist - on the far right or far left - and someone like Posie Parker, who may chat to people on the right, who may be a bit blunt in her speech and who is generally a bit Marmite.

But I don't think many people would argue, as bizarrely you appear to do here, that anyone is actually calling her a Nazi. Even Julie Bindel, for all her dislike of Posie, is suggesting nothing as ridiculous as this.

I'm also really quite tired of your repeated sarky suggestions that the idea that anti-Semitism underlies many conspiracy theories is itself a conspiracy theory. It's not 'ironic' to suggest that, it's not 'darkly funny', it's simply ignorant and racist.

I had said above I hadn't come across anti-Semitism on FWR before (on MN, yes, but on FWR, no), but your posts are making me rethink that.

Well done you.

I look forward to your next bullshit post telling me I am trying to 'silence' you by pointing out your racism, a la Laurence Fox.

In reality, I have no desire to 'cancel' you or 'silence' you and indeed I am quite happy to stand by you on any feminist barricades even if you are a racist provocateur. With a rather poor 'sense of humour'.

The idea here though is to associate conspiracy theories - which exist about a myriad of topics - as a class, with Naziism, and anti-Jewish sentiment

One of the images on Brand New Tube's promotional video is the hooded figure of death with the Star of David for a face. Probably the most prominent channel they promote on the site is David Icke. I don't think it's reaching to say that this particular bunch of conspiracy theorists are antisemitic.

@xxyzz

Goosefoot, you may for reasons I don't really understand struggle to differentiate between a conspiracy theorist - on the far right or far left - and someone like Posie Parker, who may chat to people on the right, who may be a bit blunt in her speech and who is generally a bit Marmite.

But I don't think many people would argue, as bizarrely you appear to do here, that anyone is actually calling her a Nazi. Even Julie Bindel, for all her dislike of Posie, is suggesting nothing as ridiculous as this.

I'm also really quite tired of your repeated sarky suggestions that the idea that anti-Semitism underlies many conspiracy theories is itself a conspiracy theory. It's not 'ironic' to suggest that, it's not 'darkly funny', it's simply ignorant and racist.

I had said above I hadn't come across anti-Semitism on FWR before (on MN, yes, but on FWR, no), but your posts are making me rethink that.

Well done you.

I look forward to your next bullshit post telling me I am trying to 'silence' you by pointing out your racism, a la Laurence Fox.

In reality, I have no desire to 'cancel' you or 'silence' you and indeed I am quite happy to stand by you on any feminist barricades even if you are a racist provocateur. With a rather poor 'sense of humour'.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

I don't think Posie Parker is a conspiracy theorist. I used an example of someone saying she believed in moon landing conspiracies, or used a platform for people who believes in moon landing conspiracies, as fairly clear ( I thought) no true examples of why people are trying to make any association with something that could possibly be a conspiracy theory a wrongthink position. I have never heard of PP saying anything about moon landings, but we do have people criticising her here simply for an association with a platform that also hosts people who believe in conspiracy theories.

Nor did I say that pointing out that many conspiracy theories are anti-semitic is a conspiracy theory. I said that a particular poster had expressed a conspiracy theory about that topic, ie that there was a conspiracy to spread conspiracy theories about the jews - in an attempt to say that conspiracy theories were ethically compromised. Maybe if you'd bothered to read the post I was responding to that would have been clearer but I really can't help it if you don't. The same particular poster, and I've seen it elsewhere recently as well, seems to be trying to discredit as many people as possible trough association, even vague ones and indirect ones, to any conspiracy theory. In part by claiming that all or most conspiracy theories are anti-jewish intent.

That's a dishonest method and it's basically using whatever issues resonate with people, be it LGB rights, or racial equality, or fighting anti-Semitism, as a stick to discredit those who are actually making some progress working for women's rights.

@raddledoldmisanthropist

The idea here though is to associate conspiracy theories - which exist about a myriad of topics - as a class, with Naziism, and anti-Jewish sentiment

One of the images on Brand New Tube's promotional video is the hooded figure of death with the Star of David for a face. Probably the most prominent channel they promote on the site is David Icke. I don't think it's reaching to say that this particular bunch of conspiracy theorists are antisemitic.

I would think so, though it sounds like the platform hosts pretty much anyone. Though I think many of those kinds of places ultimately intend to try and radicalise. I think how people feel about that depends a fair bit on what they think a platform is. Is it like a newspaper where there is editorial oversight, or like Speakers Corner, where you just have to be within the law? There are some people who simply feel they have a message that is important and will put it out anywhere. It's closer to propaganda than being allies.

But claims that most conspiracy theories, even ones about things like covid which might be better characterised as unrealistic speculation, are somehow connected to Naziism isn't about questioning what is prudent or effective or even principled. It's about erasing differentiation.

I mean, that's not even the sort of thing Bindel was talking about, it goes way beyond the bar she seemed to want to set for being allied to bad people.

I mean, that's not even the sort of thing Bindel was talking about, it goes way beyond the bar she seemed to want to set for being allied to bad people.

Yeah, I agree with your original points about Julie, particularly the one about how silly it is when people lump all Christians together.

I think she's always seen this debate through a traditional UK left-wing filter. That said, given she's spent decades fighting for women's rights I can see why she feels the US religious right are just as big a threat to those rights as Genderists. We all pick our own lines.

I would think so, though it sounds like the platform hosts pretty much anyone.

No, I think the choices of promoted channel and, particularly, the images on their promotional video make it very clear that racism is part of their core mission.

@raddledoldmisanthropist

The idea here though is to associate conspiracy theories - which exist about a myriad of topics - as a class, with Naziism, and anti-Jewish sentiment

One of the images on Brand New Tube's promotional video is the hooded figure of death with the Star of David for a face. Probably the most prominent channel they promote on the site is David Icke. I don't think it's reaching to say that this particular bunch of conspiracy theorists are antisemitic.

Not a reach at all.

Not a reach at all.

It's worse than that. I've just realised that the anti-Semitic image I mentioned above was from the titles to Sonia's raw report. You can click to it from her twitter, it opens every episode.

FFS.

Thanks for your post Grinitch really interesting (and on topic).

Goosefoot, I don't know or care which poster you are referring to - but if you are objecting to a particular poster it would be quite helpful if you could quote them and refer to their particular posts, rather than making dark assertions that an unnamed someone is secretly trying to paint all GC feminists as Nazis.

The reality is - and unlike you, I don't see GC feninists as being in any way implicated, as Poulton aside, I see little evidence of GC feminists espousing conspiracy theories themselves, as opposed to talking to those who do - that conspiracy cults and anti-Semitism are deeply similar and intertwined movements.

It's hardly an accident or coincidence, after all anti-Semitism is the conspiracy theory par excellence (powerful group secretly conspiring to take over the world? Tick. Kill children to increase their strength? Tick. Less than human themselves? Tick.). Anti-Semitism is in many ways the model for this kind of conspiracy theory, its archetypes go back hundreds of years, it appeals to stupid, gullible and vicious people in exactly the same way any other conspiracy theory does. And that is visible on both the far left (eg Piers Corbyn is a Holocaust denier as well as an anti-masker and climate change denier) and the far right ( eg the terrorist who murdered Jews in the synagogue in Pittsburgh claiming Jews were behind 'white genocide').

While this thread goes well beyond Julie's article, I would therefore disagre with her that the danger lies only or at least primarily on the far right. Unlike her, I am aware that Jews, like women, are threatened by both far left and far right positions. One of the reasons I spent relatively little time on this board until recently was because in the last 4 or 5 years, as things have really kicked off in attacks on women's rights, Corbyn's Labour's attacks on Jews meant that I was busy fighting on 2 fronts, and in my case, judged that the threat to my safety from anti-Semites on the left was more immediate to me than the threat to my safety from TRAs. Now Starmer is in place, I feel able to relax a bit and take up the fight for women's rights again, against both the far left and far right.

To me, the distinction between far left and far right seems pretty spurious anyway, as both are pretty similar, in their methods and priorities. I distrust both equally. I don't feel your attempts, Goosefoot, to blur the boundaries between far right (Neo-Nazis) and mainstream right (Posie Parker) is helpful, as in reality, the real commonality is between moderates on both the left and right, which includes 99% of GC feminists, and the nutters and conspiracy theorists on both the extremist right and left.

In short, the right/left divide is not the real issue. The real split is between extremists (who CTs naturally belong to) and moderates.

So I get where Julie is coming from, but unlike her I wouldn't trust the far left as far as I could throw them either.

Yaniv's victims were successfully defended, free of charge, by The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thepostmillennial.com/breaking-the-lawyer-who-took-down-jessica-yaniv-explains-the-case

www.jccf.ca/

Below are 2 websites attacking the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom as a right wing conspiracy. I'm sure there will be plenty of others.

If I had been one of Yaniv's victims, especially one from a minority ethnic background, possibly with limited English language and certainly limited means I'd be very grateful the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom existed since no one else wanted to help me.

rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/alberta-diary/2018/06/money-wealthy-right-wing-ideologues-helps-fuel-group

north99.org/2018/01/26/far-right-dark-money-network-behind-conservative-politics-justice-centre-constitutional-freedoms/

@xxyzz

To me, the distinction between far left and far right seems pretty spurious anyway, as both are pretty similar, in their methods and priorities. I distrust both equally. I don't feel your attempts, Goosefoot, to blur the boundaries between far right (Neo-Nazis) and mainstream right (Posie Parker) is helpful, as in reality, the real commonality is between moderates on both the left and right, which includes 99% of GC feminists, and the nutters and conspiracy theorists on both the extremist right and left.

I think it's a bit unfair to lump the entire far left in with the Trotskyite and Marxist Lenininist groups that encircled Corbyn and within which antsemitism was a problem, one that escalated after 911/Iraq and one that was identified and heavily criticised by many people on the nonaligned or anarchist left.

If by far left you mean seeks to abolish capitalism then you'd have to include pretty much the whole of second wave radical feminism, including Bindel herself.

@Goosefoot

But claims that most conspiracy theories, even ones about things like covid which might be better characterised as unrealistic speculation, are somehow connected to Naziism isn't about questioning what is prudent or effective or even principled. It's about erasing differentiation.

The thing about the Covid conspiracy is that it may be unrealistic speculation but when it descends into ideas that the virus is faked, or was deliberately introduced to force us all to take a dangeroys vaccine is that that presupposes the idea that there is some shadowy global cartel with the power to unleash global events for malignant aims. One thing that happened post 911 in the conspiracy world was that all the small conspiracies started to coalesce into one much larger over-riding narrative which may or may not be presented as Jewish plot depending on who it is trying to attract but which features all of the hallmarks of classic antisemitism. As such as lot of people who were in many ways just a bit cranky, be they anti-vaxxers or moon landing hoax people, who were open to this kind of conspiratorial thinking 'joined the dots' amd started to push a narrative that even if it didn't mention Jews by name was pretty indistinguishable from historis antisemitism. And the reason this happened so easily is that once people are prepared to disregard basic standards of evidence then they arsonance will hold them in place, if you've spent the last year telling everyone 911 was an inside job then any evidence of which there is lots and lots that the 'official narrative' is actually pretty much what happened becomes evidence of an even greater conspiracy - it must be faked, it's part of the plot. This is how people get drawn in with new layers of the conspiracy added all the time as a psychological defence against realising that actually your being a bit of a numpty and talking nonsense to everyone.

So whilst smaller single event conspiracy theories are less damaging on their own they act axs a gateway into much more insidious beliefs, which is surely why our thinking, analysis and political conclusions should be based on credible evidence and not a hunch, or a feeling, or something someone someone said in a youtube video that just sort of feels right because it fits in with any assumptions or latent prejudices you might hold.

There's a lot of 'splaining going on here today.

It would be brilliant if JB could come along and explain her viewpoint. Or Sonia.. I'm quite sure that from time to time they must have a browse!

I had said above I hadn't come across anti-Semitism on FWR before (on MN, yes, but on FWR, no)

I have, there's been plenty of nudge nudge comments about Soros on here, although to be fair there have been people that have challenged it as well.

I wonder though do you not see some elements of conspiratorial thought within some aspects of the gender critical movement? The talk of TRAs 'capturing' major institutions behind the scenes, the obsession some people seem to have with Stonewall, and the 'Stonewall financial juggernaut' implementing 'Stonewall Law' everywhere when in reality they are a pretty small charity who seem far more important to gender critical people than most trans people who barely give them a second thought. The narrative presented is of secretive actors shaping public thoughts and ideas rather then what I would suggest is a social change is taking place, one influenced by real material forces such as the changing nature of work, technological advances like the internet and the growth of individualism and consumerism as identity, in which younger generations are rethinking and reshaping how they understand gender, possibly, like may social changes, for good and ill.

Much like the targets of other conspiracy theories trans people are often portrayed as simultaneously degenerate, stupid (don't even understand basic biology), and mad (it's a mental illness) yet also all powerful with the ability to brainwash huge institutions like the police and BBC. And always with awful intent. It's never just well I suppose trans adults can empathise with children who experience gender dysphoria and so support treatment in limited cases but I don't agree and think the risk of regret is too great or the evidence base isn't strong enough for me. It's trans people are homophobes, and misogynists, who want to destroy lesbians and mutilate children to prove their sick fetish ideology. And at it's extremes this does collapse into more traditional and extreme conspiratorial thinking with the claims this is a plot to erase women completely, or a paedophile plot to create adults with childrens bodies, or that trans rights are a softening up for even more devious and terrible ends, or even that it''s all just a massive money making plot by Big Pharma, with Jennifer Pritzker and Marine Rothblatt, two Jewish trans women often singled out as being behind it, along with the ever present Soros.

It's irrelevant as to whether some people think there's a "conspiracy" to embed transgender people within all areas designed for women.

It's a fact that many organisations have used the word "gender" when they mean "sex" regarding equalities legislation.

It's a fact that women are being mostly ignored by sports bodies who want to make women's sports mixed-sex.

It's a fact that the Labour Party still support self-id.

That women's refuges are expected to include men.

I could go on, but you know all this already.

This thread was actually about Bindel thinking we shouldn't align with people on the right to fight this.

Why are you wittering on?

*This thread was actually about Bindel thinking we shouldn't align with people on the right to fight this.

Why are you wittering on?*

Well said. Another thread totally derailed.

I disagree that Posie Parker is mainstream right wing.

There is nothing right wing about accepting reality and disagreeing with enabling children to make choices they cannot possibly have capacity to make and may deeply regret.

AFAIK she is still supportive of a broadly left wing political agenda such as redistribution of wealth, equal ops etc.

Most people on the left would agree with her views on the protection of children and the reality of sex. Just because a tiny number of activists have effected institutional capture, doesn't mean they represent the views of people who broadly align with the values and aims of the institution. Labour's red wall hasn't started to believe in private medicine and the abolition of the welfare state; they just didn't vote labour. Doesn't mean they've all become right wing.