Are school trip dormitories single sex?

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I'm a secondary teacher and have been asked to supervise an overnight trip next year (c19 allowing, but all pupils are in one bubble, so seems likely to go ahead). School is refusing to confirm that sleeping arrangements will be unequivocally single sex, and say exceptions could be made on a case by case basis. I've been to the relevant person in the school's wider organisation - purposefully vague for obvious reasons- who supports that stance. Can anyone advise if they have raised this with a school either as a parent or teacher, and what the outcome was?

We take selected pupils on a camping trip once a year and up until two years ago single sex was the default and there were no issues with this. Then we had a parent of a male homosexual pupil who wanted to be tented with girls and we had a meeting with all parents and they agreed in writing for this to be the case. Last year (June 2020 - so didn't go ahead) we had a number of trans pupils saying they had a right to be tented with people of the same gender as them (ie we would have pupils of different biological genders sharing a tent). Our school didn't really know how to deal with it and we were really lucky that c19 took this issue out of our hands. Goodness knows what will happen when the trip starts back up again...

I feel for you iced. It’s a perfect example of where “be kiiiiinnd” gets you!

Then we had a parent of a male homosexual pupil who wanted to be tented with girls and we had a meeting with all parents and they agreed in writing for this to be the case.

Leave aside the subsequent gender related discussions, but this ^
Why? Why should a male homosexual be tented with the girls? Did the girls have a say? What age were the pupils I wonder, in terms of the boy being definitely established as a homosexual.
If the boy didn't feel safe to be tented with the other boys then the school should address the homophobia.
Otherwise why can't such pupils just have a single person tent?
It almost feels like a planned Trojan horse, breaking down boundaries.
I would not have been happy if this situation were foisted on my daughters.

Have you raised the fact that this was clarified by aliz Triss in the HoC?

I wondered the same, Fanny.

Why on earth was it decided that a boy who might be gay wasn't allowed to share with other boys?

That is blatant discrimination due to sexual orientation.

In this circumstance I would just put the responsibility back onto senior management. They can find someone else willing to supervise mixed sex groups as you will be busy that night (washing your hair, perhaps?)

There will presumably be a variety of policies that the school will have to publish that will cover this. A school that a family member is involved with has am overnights trips policy. After I had reviewed a number of the policies (usual lack of sex in the Equalities one, etc) the policy now states overnight trips have single sex sleeping arrangements.

Hi OP.

In my capacity as a parent I have brought this up with an organisation who stated that accomm on a trip would be 'same gender' (i.e. mixed sex! ).

I pointed out that under the Equality Act 2010 biological sex is a protected category and the Act contains a number of single sex exemptions. Department of Education 2018 guidance:

“With regards to boarding accommodation, Schedule 23 of the Equality Act 2019 allows for separation by sex providing the same standard of accommodation is provided for both boys and girls.”

I also pointed out that EHRC clarification in 2018 states that under-18s cannot legally transition and are therefore legally the sex they were born irrespective of how they identify.

Whether the organisation chooses to do so or not, it is therefore lawful to exclude males from certain designated female-only spaces

I also pointed that an organisation has to demonstrate due regard to the potential impact on all the protected characteristics in the EA 2010 and had they done an Equality Impact Assessment before bringing in their trans inclusion policy on accommodation and whether trip attendees and their parents were consulted.

I got a response back telling me that they hadn't finalised their trans inclusion policy after all and were going to discuss my points at board level. I'm afraid that Covid 19 meant the trip didn't happen so I haven't yet pursued this further but I took their response to mean that they were taking me seriously.

I think many organisations need people to point out the actual law versus what the trans lobby has been saying. Clarity from the current judicial reviews will hopefully help in due course too.

Ultimately, I think the highlighting the safeguarding and legal minefield is the thing that might persuade organisations to stick with single sex provision. Highlight the worst case scenario: "What do you think our organisation's legal position will be if a female child is sexually assaulted or gets pregnant by a male child they were bunked up with on our trip?"

I think kids with gender identity issues should be with their friends, for example my daughter shared with her best friend (who's identifies as a trans boy).
I think this is the way the scouts deal with it too. It's not perfect but as long as everyone consents?????

@KatVonlabonk

I think kids with gender identity issues should be with their friends, for example my daughter shared with her best friend (who's identifies as a trans boy). I think this is the way the scouts deal with it too. It's not perfect but as long as everyone consents?????

That's fine as long as accommodation remains single sex. So trans boys (who are female) share with girls, and trans girls (who are male) share with boys.

Who is your DSL? Is that the person in the wider organisation? If so then I think you should just refuse. I would say that you are uncomfortable with the safeguarding arrangements and cite recent court cases if necessary.

Supervising secondary age students on overnight stays is difficult enough without introducing safeguarding problems.
Frankly, if accommodation is not single sexed, I can't imagine that any teacher with any sense would volunteer to lead such a trip.

Ask the school to check with their insurers, the venue, and the venues insurers.

we had a number of trans pupils saying they had a right to be tented with people of the same gender as them

That would be a tent for the trans pupils, then? Or two or three tents if there are more than would fit into one tent.

Teachers, scout leaders etc will just stop volunteering and then there will be no trips. Inclusion for some reulting in exclusion for all the rest.

There is no such thing as single gender or a right to be with people who have the same gender; whose to know what various and multiple gender expressions the girls may have? This is a disingenuous cover phrase to obscure the bottom line which is that it means all biological females and the biological males who would prefer to identify as female.

Three separate issues not to be conflated: Issue one: if a male child with gender identity differences prefers not to be placed with other males then a) is there an issue there of how other males treat that child that needs sorting out and b) yes, that child's privacy, dignity and individual need may mean they need alternative and additional provision to be planned. This is the inclusion bit.

issue two: mixed sex accommodation for any children isn't permitted because of all x reasons, none of which have changed or gone away.

issue three: female children have actual, legal rights to privacy, dignity and single sex spaces, and equal regard paid to their feelings and needs and preferences. These rights are not contingent on the feelings and preferences of male children.

i think if its in tents then Scouts just get the parents to agree so they can have single sex tents and mixed sex tents depending who wants to share with who. All with consent.

On school trips, they may be in much larger rooms and they should abide by the law and offer single sex accommodation.

Sometimes they have smaller rooms so possible that a small group could share a mixed gender room. However that doesn't solve the bathroom situation.

As a biology teacher i have run many field trips and other residentials with mainly post 16 age group. Personally I would refuse to run a trip if a child insisted on access to a bathroom that didn't match up with their sex and I'm fairly sure my colleagues would too unless suitable arrangements could be made that didn't infringe on other's right to single sex spaces.

@Icedteaplease

We take selected pupils on a camping trip once a year and up until two years ago single sex was the default and there were no issues with this. Then we had a parent of a male homosexual pupil who wanted to be tented with girls and we had a meeting with all parents and they agreed in writing for this to be the case. Last year (June 2020 - so didn't go ahead) we had a number of trans pupils saying they had a right to be tented with people of the same gender as them (ie we would have pupils of different biological genders sharing a tent). Our school didn't really know how to deal with it and we were really lucky that c19 took this issue out of our hands. Goodness knows what will happen when the trip starts back up again...

What’s a “biological gender”?

(Clue: it has something in common with unicorns, the tooth fairy and honest politicians.)

Some really useful answers here.
The Girl Guides have run into difficulties with this. Thank you to those who have quoted the Equality Act.
Thank you to those who have pointed out that a child remains their biological sex legally until at least 18.

Thanks all, really helpful

@PamDenick

Some really useful answers here. The Girl Guides have run into difficulties with this. Thank you to those who have quoted the Equality Act. Thank you to those who have pointed out that a child remains their biological sex legally until at least 18.

I'm a bit confused about the Girl Guides (and so also the school situation), if it wasn't for JK Rowling I wouldn't have seen here (and/or on twitter) about the Guides court case, yet not one single thing I've just seen on their website would give me any indication that this was a possibility and being as Rainbows to Rangers goes up to 18 therefore they are not of an age to change their legal sex, are they just wording it carefully? Have there been any other court cases?

What’s a “biological gender”?

There’s no such thing.

Also, for the two pp who mentioned that as long as everyone consents, it’s fine.

How easy would it be to be the one person who doesn’t consent? Considering how little it takes to be labelled as “transphobic”, how easy would it be in practice to be the one person who doesn’t consent and be comfortable saying so? Peer pressure is a very powerful thing.

I think it also matters where your accommodation is. If there is any level of public access what risk does that add?

Ie if it’s a mix of schools or a big campsite and you’re dealing with a child that’s not known to the kids in dorms or bathrooms (I’d imagine this would be more uncomfortable and unsafe).
Or if the trans child uses a public loo is there a higher risk to them (and you).

I think a lot of organisations have put measures in place, from 'expert' advice in anticipation of self ID. If self ID had become a thing, it would be virtually impossible to enforce single sex facilities.
The Equality Act specifies protected characteristics. One of which is sex, another is gender reassignment.
Only adults can obtain a GRC.
I would imagine once the understanding that the advice in anticipation of self ID is flawed, many of these policies will have to be clarified. Trans identifying children will need their requirements to be sensitively taken into account. But this doesn't mean single sex facilities automatically get redesignated as single gender.

This came up with my church.

If they are offering only mised-sex accommodation - which it seems from your post they are - then they need to make it very clear to all the parents that this is exactly the offer, even if they state "single gender" meaning "potentially mixed-sex", because in the general population sex and gender are conflated.

If they don't make it very clear that parents are sending their children to a mixed-sex dorm, then they are opening themselves up to a world of litigation, especially if any assaults ensue.