Are school trip dormitories single sex?

[Mooncupdotcom]

I'm a secondary teacher and have been asked to supervise an overnight trip next year (c19 allowing, but all pupils are in one bubble, so seems likely to go ahead). School is refusing to confirm that sleeping arrangements will be unequivocally single sex, and say exceptions could be made on a case by case basis. I've been to the relevant person in the school's wider organisation - purposefully vague for obvious reasons- who supports that stance. Can anyone advise if they have raised this with a school either as a parent or teacher, and what the outcome was?

@FamilyOfAliens

What’s a “biological gender”?

There’s no such thing.

Also, for the two pp who mentioned that as long as everyone consents, it’s fine.

How easy would it be to be the one person who doesn’t consent? Considering how little it takes to be labelled as “transphobic”, how easy would it be in practice to be the one person who doesn’t consent and be comfortable saying so? Peer pressure is a very powerful thing.

I mentioned consent. I could imagine that with some residential places they have small rooms for 2 - 4 students to share, so a small group could voluntarily consent to share without infringing on the rights of others. However, not too sure about the bathrooms as they have always been communal bathrooms and I don't think any student should be coerced into mixed sex bathrooms.
The scout trip I'm aware of had a trans girl and she shared a tent with her best friend (female) with the consent of parents. Had no effect on any other of the scouts.

This safeguarding nightmare just shows how successful Stonewall and Mermaids have been in capturing schools and persuading them to disregard the safeguarding training and protocols they're obliged to revisit annually.

It's quite remarkable how otherwise intelligent people - who have to write risk assessments in detail showing how they're going to mitigate the risk of a 15 year old slipping as they board a coach - will cheerfully agree to place teenage boys in the same room or tent as girls and not see a problem.

Great response Antibles
For OP Safe Schools Alliance have a template letter for school trips. Scroll down to bottom of this page
www.google.com/amp/s/safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/letter-templates/%3famp

It wouldn't much matter to me whether the children - or their parents - consented. I wouldn't be leading that trip because I think it's a SG risk and I would be responsible if anything happened. And I would expect a competent DSL to take the same view.

This safeguarding nightmare just shows how successful Stonewall and Mermaids have been in capturing schools and persuading them to disregard the safeguarding training and protocols they're obliged to revisit annually.

Doesn't it just..jesus.

What I find most concerning about this whole mess, is how places seem determined to lie/fudge their way out of it? With the 'it is single gender' when people ask about single sex, from guiding and such. Is this additional 'advice' from the likes of stonewall I wonder? If any parent complains, first fudge wording so it looks like nothings going on, then call them bigoted and kick out their child from the activity..or something?!

It wouldn't much matter to me whether the children - or their parents - consented. I wouldn't be leading that trip because I think it's a SG risk and I would be responsible if anything happened. And I would expect a competent DSL to take the same view.

THIS. I've been wide-eyed with astonishment that this is still going on all afternoon.

We don't separate children based on the thoughts in their heads. We separate based on sex, because otherwise there are safeguarding risks - especially and predominantly to girls.

DO you actually have trans individuals on the trip, or are you making a fuss about nothing?

AND - it's still wrong to room a gay male and a female together even if they are "friends".

You cannot, simply cannot make exceptions to safeguarding principles and protocols on the basis of 'the kids say it's all right'.

DO you actually have trans individuals on the trip, or are you making a fuss about nothing?

The OP is not "making a fuss about nothing" because at any given moment a child could identify as trans. Having committed to leading a trip, the OP would then be placed in a potentially very difficult position.

Part of leading or accompanying a trip is assessing risk and any teacher leading a trip needs to ensure that s/he assesses all risks to all children.

@BillywilliamV

DO you actually have trans individuals on the trip, or are you making a fuss about nothing?

Did you read the second post in this thread?

Last year (June 2020 - so didn't go ahead) we had a number of trans pupils saying they had a right to be tented with people of the same gender as them (ie we would have pupils of different biological genders sharing a tent). Our school didn't really know how to deal with it and we were really lucky that c19 took this issue out of our hands.

This is happening in schools. It's not 'a fuss about nothing'.

@billywilliamv

I don't think it is a fuss about nothing. If 100 families trust me to look after their children, I want to make sure that means following legal and safeguarding good practice including single sex sleeping and toileting arrangements amongst many many other aspects of the massive and thankless task of taking a residential trip.

In the case I was talking about in a previous post, the reason that specific homosexual male was tented with females is because all the girls on the trip were his lifelong friends (and the reason he went on the trip). His argument was that he had never been friends wirh any boys (which is true) and he spent every weekend at sleepovers with the girls he's be renting with anyway (also true - one of the girls is my niece). Without wanting to be too revealing, it is a month-long excursion and so the issue of whether he would have to tent with boys he didn't know versus his best friends would have been a deal-breaker for all 4 of the pupils involved. Honestly, I'd have been much more comfortable with the decision that there was no mixing of pupils of different sexes in the tents so as to avoid problems in the future, but in his specific case I did understand the argument. I do think there's some serious serious safeguarding issues regarding this (and related issues) that really need to be addressed.

@BillywilliamV

DO you actually have trans individuals on the trip, or are you making a fuss about nothing?

Well if we’re expected to understand that gender is fluid and we aren’t to know what’s going on in someone else’s head and we must take whatever gender someone identifies with without quibbling then no, this is not a fuss about nothing.

Safeguarding of school age kids, especially away from home, is a big deal.

I would have had massive anxiety at 13 to find an 18 year old male in a dorm or bathroom. Even worse if it was 50yr old ‘Ms’ Smith looking after us (however nice and respectable they were). I would not have said anything! (Be cool and all that) We’re putting teenage girls in a really tricky position.

@EvenSupposing

It wouldn't much matter to me whether the children - or their parents - consented. I wouldn't be leading that trip because I think it's a SG risk and I would be responsible if anything happened. And I would expect a competent DSL to take the same view.

This.

As a teacher or adult I would not volunteer for this.

As a parent of secondary aged children I would not want my children to go on a trip like this.

My parents would never never ever had let me go on a mixed accommodation trip when I was a child. Such a shame that girls like I was are basically going to be excluded from these opportunities.

What about children who's parents/their faith prohibits sleeping in the same room/tent etc as a member of the opposite sex. Again another load of children denied opportunity of over-night trips.

Equality legislation works both/all ways.

Equality legislation protects males by their sex.

That means - they must be protected within their own bubble from harm.

In plain speak: males, budge up and accept your feminine brothers in your protected spaces.

@BillywilliamV

DO you actually have trans individuals on the trip, or are you making a fuss about nothing?

The point is that in this scenario, we aren't supposed to know if some of the "girls" sharing sleeping accommodation are actually male. We wouldn't be told. There may be male children in the girls' accommodation, there may not, we don't know. And in the absence of being told or not, in order to safeguard all children, then many people will have to keep their kids away.

That's the 'well it doesn't matter (for girls) unless it's happening Right Now' approach.

It's usually followed by:

If it is happening there's nothing wrong
If there is something wrong then it's not that bad
If it is that bad then it's justified
If it isn't justified its because you're thinking about it all wrong
If you're not thinking about it all wrong, then you're a bigot.

That's the 'well it doesn't matter (for girls) unless it's happening Right Now' approach.

It's usually followed by:

When it does happen, then we aren't allowed to complain until Something Very Bad happens.

And then it's dismissed as being one bad egg, on which others must not be judged because that would be like punishing all Muslims for one terrorist.

Or, it's someone pretending to be trans, which is nothing to do with the policy, but instead a lack of risk management, because Women Do It Too.

Failing that, the women and girls just shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Etc.

And then it's dismissed as being one bad egg, on which others must not be judged because that would be like punishing all Muslims for one terrorist.

I know a fair few trans people none of whom is violent or sexually abusive, though one was violent when he was male and is a pita as a performative female drunk. This does not mean violent and/or sexually abusive trans people cannot exist.

Or, it's someone pretending to be trans, which is nothing to do with the policy, but instead a lack of risk management, because Women Do It Too.

To be fair, it seems that there are men who pretend to be trans for nefarious reasons. And they seem to be good at evading risk management measures.

What do Women Do Too though? I don't understand that bit.

Asking Eg with Karen White, some TRAs claimed this was nothing different to any other time a female prisoner attacks other women in prisons and so nothing different should happen than what would happen if they were female.

Oh, I see. Thanks.

What a spurious bunch of bullsh*t.

Oh god more "case by case " nonsense.

The kids should not be put in that position. End of. Whether they are friends or gay or consent etc wtf is wrong with the adults thinking its OK of specific sets if circumstances are met. Its not.

And it relies totally on kids speaking up whilst knowing that all the abused children have skewed boundries as it is, and need help to rebuild them. Not taken advantage of for not having them, whilst knowing that kids will do what teachers ask of them no matter how bad they feel about it, and religious kids just won't go.

Its no. No explanation required.

I don't think sexes should be mixed, but some people will argue that a homosexual male is more likely to focus their attention on other males which is also difficult to argue against.

I have this issue at the moment with our school - have been brushed off so far but am not letting it go