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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tatchell says trying to prevent public sex is homophobic

94 replies

Clymene · 02/10/2020 14:24

https://twitter.com/petertatchell/status/1311962893248847872?s=21

He is complaining that Southwark council has tried to prevent gay men from having sex in burgess park. For those unfamiliar with the area, Burgess Park has play areas, sports facilities, a cafe, a lake etc. It's the biggest green space in a very built up area.

Is there some particular reason gay men need to have random encounters in bushes? Is that what he's arguing? Confused

Tatchell says trying to prevent public sex is homophobic
OP posts:
TinselAngel · 02/10/2020 17:25

Surely it'd only be homophobic if the council were OK with heterosexuals shagging in the bushes, which I'm assuming they're not?

IrmaFayLear · 02/10/2020 17:32

As others have said, when homosexuality was illegal then assignations in public toilets and bushes was by necessity.

Now it is a desire , and gay men should be subject to the same laws as anyone.

Our local public conveniences are used as a “meet up” during the day. I reported the activity to the council, and the response was, “Oh, it’s okay, they move to the conker field when the weather cheers up.” I think that anyone deserves to enter a public toilet to carry out their business in peace, and not have to worry about being accosted “because that’s what gay men do”. What about young boys needing the loo? MN gets in a stew about boys of say 9 in a female loo, but is it acceptable for them to have to come across “activity” in a male public toilet?

nauticant · 02/10/2020 17:34

Not many people supporting Tatchell but there are some:

twitter.com/NicciTake/status/1311984171389276160

teawamutu · 02/10/2020 17:36

The ratio is a thing of beauty. Especially compared to his usual level of engagement, ie nearly none.

EvenSupposing · 02/10/2020 17:39

@teawamutu

The ratio is a thing of beauty. Especially compared to his usual level of engagement, ie nearly none.
He does have his own newsletter though so that proves his ongoing relevance to society. (Narrator in voiceover - 'in fact the opposite was true')
lionheart · 02/10/2020 17:57

Didn't know this was also a problem in Bloomsbury (according the that twitter feed).

His ratios are not so good.

NiceGerbil · 02/10/2020 18:01

Lol at that woman saying it's jealousy :D

Then that she's never done it herself (assume that's a joke).

Then saying it's only happening at 3am :D

A lot of prior don't get out much it seems.

nauticant · 02/10/2020 18:05

You might want to look again NiceGerbil.

Put it this way, is it the kind of thing a women would usually support?

terryleather · 02/10/2020 18:05

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I just found this related piece: archive.li/xDwgF It's very long, so I've copied a few excerpts below.

Then again, simply being in public can be a disaster when you’re queer. Having sex in a public place almost comes naturally when your body is hardly welcomed to begin with.

Still, there’s an ongoing culture war within the queer community between those who advocate for public sex and those who believe it’s abhorrent. As radical queers go toe-to-toe with burgeoning purity culture, issues of class, race, gentrification, sexual consent, and the long-term legacy of the AIDS crisis merge together to create one of the most complex issues the LGBTQ community deals with.

For teens or young adults that live in strict, conservative households, public sex provides an opportunity for sexual exploration outside of family control. For women, having sex in public can feel empowering, doubly so if you’re in a space where public sex is expected, such as a music festival, sex party, or BDSM club. But there is a double standard around who gets to have public sex, and who doesn’t, which fuels backlash against queers who have sex in bathroom stalls and park forests.

During the 20th century, public sex was a cornerstone of LGBTQ sexual expression. By having sex in public, queer men, women, and nonbinary folks reclaimed public spaces from heteronormative society and turned them into hubs for queer eroticism and desire

Bathrooms, parks, and alleyways also give queers the privacy they need to hook up with each other away from discriminatory parents, partners, and siblings.

Homoeroticism is so attractive to men across sexualities that the police have to suppress it in order to uphold the heterosexual status quo, Califia writes.

Why is sex supposed to be invisible? Other pleasurable acts or acts of communication are routinely performed in public—eating, drinking, talking, watching movies, writing letters, studying or teaching, telling jokes and laughing, appreciating fine art. Is sex so deadly, hateful, and horrific that we can’t permit it to be seen?

Sex workers, leather gays, and radical queers still push for destigmatizing public sex, if not engaging in it themselves, but public sex isn’t quite the widespread queer pastime it used to be.

Instead, moral panic over gay public sex has grown. While cisgender heterosexual couples are much less likely to be seen as boundary violators for hooking up in a bathroom stall or the backseat of a car, queer sex is inherently transgressive, so queer public sex quickly becomes a target for homophobia from within and without the queer community.

“I no longer find nudity frightening or repulsive […] Instead I have become more accepting of my own unadorned, vulnerable, imperfect flesh,” he writes. “Seeing other people having sex is reassuring and enlightening. It calmed the panic I’ve been carrying around ever since I first heard my parents fucking and thought they must be murdering each other.”

Many queer people follow in Califia’s footsteps. Datalore66 is a millennial born and raised in New York City, where she started having public sex during her teen years. Growing up, “almost no one [had] a car” in New York, and queer community was hard to find, leaving few alternatives available. While she’s since stopped having as much public sex, Datalore66 still enjoys it to this day and only discourages public sex when it’s particularly distracting, inconsiderately messy (such as sex with vomiting), or involves sex near a place where children could be present.

In a world where our phones are tracking our every moves, our voice assistants are listening in on our conversations, our unencrypted sexts can be seen by service providers, and our webcams can spy on our BDSM sessions, we are all having public sex now. Defending public sex is partly about defending the right for consenting adults to decide when they have sex, where, and who they do (and don’t) allow to gaze in. And in that case, it’s the most marginalized that are gawked at and policed the most.

Pat Califia is a female to male transsexual who is a proponent of BDSM , espouser of queer theory and a paedophile apologist who has called for age of consent laws to be repealed.

Sheila Jeffreys is very good on gay male sexuality and its influence on queer theory in her book Unpacking Queer Politics.

SunsetBeetch · 02/10/2020 18:05

@NiceGerbil

'For women, having sex in public can feel empowering, doubly so if you’re in a space where public sex is expected, such as a music festival, sex party, or BDSM club.'

????????!!!!!!!

The argument is that women like having sex in public and everyone is ok with that so it's homophobic to say men shouldn't?

How many women does he know :/

What sort of musical festivals has he been going to? I've been to many, and I've never noticed any public sex.

Christ , what an article Confused

ThinEndOfTheWedge · 02/10/2020 18:07

Quick reminder that PT - in addition to the other comments about what PT has done he has also:

  • outed people for being gay against their wishes
  • successfully campaigned for the closure of Catholic adoption agencies. These agencies had a higher rate of successful adoptions and referred gay couples to other agencies. Gay people should be able to adopt, but why couldn’t he help set up
Gay adoption agencies instead of closing down successful ones - net result - vulnerable children languish in care/have reduced life chances and no increase in the number of gay people adopting.
NiceGerbil · 02/10/2020 18:15

Sex involving vomiting?

Ok whatever but the things being referred to are pretty niche.

The idea that seeing random people engaging in sex acts about the place is a lovely natural thing is very much as odds with our culture and also very much at odds with GUESS WHAT female experience.

Random men wanking at you when you're in the park, on the tube etc when you're female isn't a beautiful natural thing. It's intimidating and upsetting and if you're younger it's confusing.

The reason women and girls don't want men about the place engaging is because of our experiences?

If it's fine and empowering for men to have their dick out in the park then it doesn't just mean yay for men who are hooking up after dark, but opens the door to a whole host of other shit.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/10/2020 18:19

Had a look at some of the responses - particularly liked "It’s 2020. Download Grindr ffs".

PotholeParadies · 02/10/2020 18:21

@nauticant

You might want to look again NiceGerbil.

Put it this way, is it the kind of thing a women would usually support?

This.

I feel I've become very cynical, but I read that and then checked the profile.

Nuff said.

Clymene · 02/10/2020 18:22

@lionheart

Didn't know this was also a problem in Bloomsbury (according the that twitter feed).

His ratios are not so good.

You couldn't walk across Russell Square in the evenings. It was basically one giant cottage 🤮
OP posts:
KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 02/10/2020 18:30

Imagine being so privileged and entitled that you believe that not being allowed to shag in public is 'oppression'.

Jog on Peter... literally!

persistentwoman · 02/10/2020 18:30

This reply has been deleted

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Beamur · 02/10/2020 18:32

Is it just me, or does anyone else see the parallel arguments to this with the naked rambler who graced us with their presence a while ago...?
Lack of appreciation of the effect on other people for one.

terryleather · 02/10/2020 18:42

@Beamur

Is it just me, or does anyone else see the parallel arguments to this with the naked rambler who graced us with their presence a while ago...? Lack of appreciation of the effect on other people for one.
It's not just you Beamur

Males, no matter how they present or what their orientation happens to be , seem to believe that the public realm belongs to them and that women and children just need to suck it up or fuck off and stay at home.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 02/10/2020 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes a deleted post.

SomeDyke · 02/10/2020 18:59

The opinion of Pat Califia can safely be dismissed as someone who is desperately trying to ignore their lesbian past, and desperately trying to be more of a gay leatherman than the others........

I think the poster had it right when they pointed out that straight blokes already view public as a sexual space, at least when it comes to harassing women. Gay men just want some of that public sex excitment as well.

PT fails to notice that sex parties or BDSM clubs aren't public -- they are for people who have decided to go there. Having sex at such a place is rather different, say, to someone deciding to shag in the bushes on your front lawn.

'women just need to do it to' -- yeah, wouldn't that be a great reaction to the wankers on the tube, women just need to wank off at blokes as wel, and all will be hunky-dory.

I met PT once when we were both much younger, I don't remember him being such an idiot then, but that was before queer theory took off.

NiceGerbil · 02/10/2020 19:27

You see naked rambler doesn't bother me. It's just skin.

The tatchell thing is about sex. Different.

I know many will have different views.

EvenSupposing · 02/10/2020 19:27

I wish they would stop writing 8,000 words of pseudo intellectual bollocks about their engorgement. Like I tell my seven year old, 'it's lovely darling but we don't all want to see it right now.'

Dreeple · 02/10/2020 21:53

Tatchell wants men to fuck nine-year old children, so he’s something of an authority on all matters of public morals.

Catch each pearl of wisdom as it drops from his lips.

SirVixofVixHall · 02/10/2020 22:40

Vile. How he has gained any credibility is beyond me. Shaggers in a public park “culture” now ? Ffs.

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