Susanna Rustin in the Guardian

[Botsy]

Couldn't see this posted but feels like a step forward

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/30/feminists-anti-trans-idea-sex-gender-oppression

Yes - I mean I find it equally odd at the moment that many people on the moderate right, or more traditional liberals, are claiming that the adherents of id politics are marxists, despite the fact that they aren't in line with some fairly fundamental marxist positions. And then totally identifying them to various things like Maoism or Leninism. Even neo-marxist would be fine by me as there is clearly some influence there. but you can't be a Marxist if you don't start with material reality.

There is really a lot of loosey-goosey use of terms and I find it to be very obscuring.

One might equally (and equally oddly) argue that being gender critical absolutely means the person is a Marxist

Oh yes, I agree. I think 'GC feminists are right wing' is a deliberate slur that's been used in the US for some time and has caught on here. In the context of the research discussed on this thread I think it's a lazy assumption. The thread is interesting which is why I mentioned it.

I lost interest, once I saw this. Homosexuality/lesbianism is completely different from trans, so why lump them in together? It means we can’t give a ‘correct’ answer. This should be in two separate questions or are you hoping to accuse GC women of being homophobic by conflating the two?

Like I said, Deliciously, it was always going to be "When did you stop beating your wife?" So predictable.

From the same school of academia as spawned the recent whitewash job on the "managed zone" (aka legalized rape zone) in Holbeck.

It is interesting though, the political bedfellows this issue creates.
I’ve never agreed with my (Tory, Brexit-voting) in laws on anything except how amazing my children are and the appeal of a three-course dinner with plenty of wine. But we’re on the same page on this, for completely different reasons and from completely different angles. Which is disconcerting. My sister was appalled by an old family friend the other day who was “anti BLM, anti MeToo, anti trans rights.” And I had this awful realisation that I’d probably agree with him on trans stuff, and she’d write me off as a bigot too.

@Minty82

It is interesting though, the political bedfellows this issue creates. I’ve never agreed with my (Tory, Brexit-voting) in laws on anything except how amazing my children are and the appeal of a three-course dinner with plenty of wine. But we’re on the same page on this, for completely different reasons and from completely different angles. Which is disconcerting. My sister was appalled by an old family friend the other day who was “anti BLM, anti MeToo, anti trans rights.” And I had this awful realisation that I’d probably agree with him on trans stuff, and she’d write me off as a bigot too.

Strange bedfellows, indeed. Someone online explained it like this: The NAACP and the Ku Klux Klan both want a word meaning 'race' to exist, but for utterly opposite reasons.

The same applies to 'biological sex' in this context when we compare gender critical feminists' views to those of very anti-feminist conservatives' views.

Yes, the gender critical = conservative trope comes from try two-party Red/Blue US system where there is no room for grey areas or nuance. To me, gc feminism is an offshoot of Marxism and it makes sense to me only as a left wing analysis. This heteronormative world view from the US is nowhere close to how I see things.

@Singasonga

I wonder if ANYONE is interested in finding out why left wing women are going GC? Why not?

The odd thing is, to anyone who understands 'the left', the question is 'why are so many leftists abandoning their political principles to promote a pseudo-religious libertarianism'?

I don't find US style progressivism left-wing at all. It's a form of secular evangelicalism, imo.

@HeirloomTomato

Yes, the gender critical = conservative trope comes from try two-party Red/Blue US system where there is no room for grey areas or nuance. To me, gc feminism is an offshoot of Marxism and it makes sense to me only as a left wing analysis. This heteronormative world view from the US is nowhere close to how I see things.

QFT

Trans people accessing single-sex spaces and activities (e.g. bathrooms)

This bit is also stupid as I am quite sure that nobody is opposed to this - some people including most on this board just think that everyone should access the spaces and activities reserved for people of their sex (as otherwise they wouldn't be single-sex spaces now, would they?).

I don't find US style progressivism left-wing at all. It's a form of secular evangelicalism, imo.

And frighteningly authoritarian

Excellent article by Susanna Rustin!! So grateful to her for this. Speaking as someone who has had 6 children and suffered breast cancer twice, I know that biology and identity are bound up together. By the way, let me know if anyone finds a way of disconnecting from the female body ... might be useful sometimes.

GC does not equal American religious right.

It’s only possible to conflate the two of you completely ignore and misunderstand what each group is saying.

It would be a bit like arguing that Chris Packham = Countryside Alliance because they both opposed a local housing development.

Modern argument:

You don’t agree with us...

you are transphobic, funded by the American ChrIstian right, racist, or what other insult comes to mind.

I don’t know what

I'm not entirely sure it's meant to make sense, the 'alignment' is just meant to seem so dreadful and immoral that anyone taking a superficial look into it would scurry away from these awful 'right wing' women. Plus the situation in the UK is so different from the US they're comparing apples and pears, it's absurd.