Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

[TheRealMcKenna]

I know it’s Vox, I know it’s not a ‘reputable’ news source, but this is hilariously bad.

Main points:

• TERFs calling themselves ‘gender critical’ are akin to white supremacists calling themselves ‘race realists’.
• Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex.
• Most ‘decent’ feminists include trans women in their movement, but a horrid bunch of conservative-allying pro-life supporting homophobic white supremacists don’t.
• GC feminists Who rely on ‘science’ have abandoned the idea that chromosomes determine sex (this is news to me)
• GC feminism is mainly a UK phenomenon and is ‘whipped up’ by the horrid Mumsnet site. Everyone else in the world is lovely (apart from those far right pro-life conservatives).
• GC feminists cite a tiny number of high profile cases to whip up fear and hatred of trans women.
• GC advocates bully people online, especially on Twitter.
• GC academics have a terribly large amount of power and influence.

www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

How do you put your values into political power through voting if the party that backs your single issue concern is generally against most other feminist policy goals? Which is why many of us are politically homeless, and have been for some time. Lots of threads on that over tthe last year or two!

Do people here advocate a devils bargain on trans issues and just hope for the best on everything else? Or not? Well, I don't advocate anything on trans issues! I advocate, vote as I can, for womens issues! And yes, when I do that I do hope for the best, desp[ote having been let down multiple times!

That's part of the long running disagreement, isn't it? You say trans issues, I say womens issues. I couldn't care how trans people gain rights and responsibilities until they intersect with womens rights and try to overturn them. I have bugger all against transpeople at all, they have every right to live as they choose... until they choose to deny women their rights.

That bit is something you, yes, you specifically turnitonagain have not addressed, other than to deny that transwomen every do overrun womens rights!

When 2 competing rights collide what happens? What do YOU think should happen?

Why is GC feminism the default position of feminism? I am a feminist but I don't want to abolish the concept of gender. Just the constraints associated with it historically.

Also how does the Venn diagram change anything? It supports the notion that feminism and conservativism align

All I’m doing is trying to scratch the surface as to what the beliefs you who are active in this topic actually mean in real life politics.

It means I don't vote because I don't have anyone I can vote for.

The Greens and Lib Dems have emphatically thrown women under the bus. I'm not convinced that Labour or the WEP will decide that womens' rights rights are important. And I can't vote for the Tories despite their actions on the GRA. I'm horrified at the incompetence of this particular government and their inhumanity towards disabled people and immigrants.

I'd imagine there are people in the US facing similar dilemmas.

I've been a leftie all my life and I'll never vote for the right wing. So I can't vote at all because a vote for the party I've previously supported is a vote against women.

@CloudyVanilla

Why is GC feminism the default position of feminism? I am a feminist but I don't want to abolish the concept of gender. Just the constraints associated with it historically.

Also how does the Venn diagram change anything? It supports the notion that feminism and conservativism align

1st: because feminism is about women, perhaps. Gender stereotypes are usually detrimental to women so it is only natural that many women who are actively feminist would fight against them, would believe that gendered expectations are something that need to disappear!

What is it about gender that you want to retain?

2nd: I think you need to update your knowledge of diagrammes! Intersection, not alignment, being what Venn diagrammes do!

Why is GC feminism the default position of feminism? I am a feminist but I don't want to abolish the concept of gender. Just the constraints associated with it historically.

Let’s just check we’re on the same page here - how would you define gender Cloudy?

I’d say it was sex-role stereotypes; stereotypes which have been used to keep women in a subordinate position. As I believe in women’s equality so am naturally critical of gender.
Perhaps you think of it as something different?

When 2 competing rights collide what happens? What do YOU think should happen?

I have a friend who is a philosophy professor who literally has spent years turning this question over in his writings. It’s not that simple to come to an answer and I’m suspicious of anyone who acts like it is.

I believe anything that genuinely threatens women’s safety should go in a favour of women. So a male rapist who then transitions should not be placed in a general population female prison. In sports I think beet high barriers should be placed to prevent men from just identifying as female to compete with women - hormones, therapy, maybe even surgery.

I don’t however think that having a pre op trans woman in the changing room with me is inherently a threat to my safety and find those arguments a bit over the top.

Being a woman is still a step down in terms of social power, the idea that men in any significant numbers would choose to identify as female so they can take things that are meant to go to women is difficult for me to believe.

You can see why someone on the outside might be confused or alarmed at any connection between feminism and right wing politics.

Sure. And have we dealt with that point? After telling us that we are not up to the debate, it seems maybe you actually want to discuss the finer points of how you choose between two positions.

In my opinion, make sure you DO vote because otherwise you have added to the problem by letting others decide for you.

If you personally have problems choosing, you do as much research as you can knowing you won’t find a perfect fit. I think you already have done some. You have identified that maybe one candidate seems to offer your state a better balance in your example. Just check it out further.

And once the election is done, if there is policy changes that you want to fight, get in there and do what you can. I have been amazed at the power of women here in the UK standing up for women.

Ultimately. It is your decision. Go with what your needs are. Not some random people on the internet.

It is a lovely Venn diagram, thanks terryleather.

The gender critical religious people I know would disagree with being characterised as Trump-supporting right-wingers though. They vote left, they support gay rights, they think women shouldn't be forced into a box because of our sex - they just happen to believe that a) sex is immutable, dimorphism is patently real, and that it's irresponsible to teach kids otherwise; and b) their god exists.

All I've got to add on the topic of transwomen being totally safe and never presenting any danger to women is this: one third of my rapists are trans. I have no desire to be in an enclosed space with any of them, especially when I've got my pants down, which is why I no longer frequent the pubs and clubs and social events that Rapist Two of Three does. But hey, so long as he gets validated, what does it matter that I have to stay home and miss out on everything?

I don’t however think that having a pre op trans woman in the changing room with me is inherently a threat to my safety and find those arguments a bit over the top.

You had me inside til ‘a bit over the top’. Can you empathize at all with a abuse survivor not wanting to be in a place of vulnerability with a male who is (sports issue plays in here) much stronger than they are? Or even just seeing an Adam’s Apple can be triggering in an enclosed and unsecured space. What about a teenage girl? As Helen Stanilands asks constantly, are you absolutely comfortable with a naked male with a penis in full view of a 12 year old who has to use that facility. Ie. An open changing room. They are still around. Knowing the statistics for sex offenders are still so much higher even for transwomen vs females as evidenced by the UK jails, if you are absolutely comfortable, why?

I’d be interested to know.

tyro

onside. Bloody spell check.

Hi there,
Just to say that we have been through this thread and made several deletions. We hope you all find Mumsnet a valuable place to continue to have these discussions, but we need to remind everyone that in order to maintain this space we do request that you remain civil and take each other in good faith wherever possible.
Many thanks to the great number of posters who adhere to these guidelines every day.

I believe in gender identity yes, surely I've made that clear? I'm not non binary or genderless. I am a woman biologically and I also identify as such.

I understand that GC feminism asserts that there is no definition of womanhood beyond female biology. I refute that through the position that gender is also a component of human identity that is more variable that human biology. I don't refute the biology of saying trans women aren't women, I refute the necessity of defining them as not women through biology alone and I question the necessity to feminist progression of excluding them from womanhood. I don't refute that women are subjugated based on biology and face separate issues trans women. I don't believe the perceived threat of trans women is anywhere near as emphatic as those on MN believe. It doesn't make me not a feminist or not concerned with women's rights.

I am not the only feminist who feels this way. I am constantly told here that I need to update my information or further my knowledge, but actually I see a consistently simplistic view of what trans women even are that shows a glaring misunderstanding of the reality of trans people and the factual reality of what their existence means to women's rights.

You can see why someone on the outside might be confused or alarmed at any connection between feminism and right wing politics.

You do keep repeating concerns about this 'connection' though. Since the only evidence you're basing it on is two posters on MN, I wonder why you keep repeating the same thing?

Also the article posted that the thread is about though, no?

And surely while we can debate beliefs, we have pretty solid and tangible evidence of those who hold those beliefs. Lots of far right wing identifiers identify with typically more bigoted views. This isn't debatable surely. If some feminists are also holding transphobic views, then the logic follows that they share those views. The underlying reasons why might differ and be debatable, but it is a clear and observable correlation, not just the ranting of 2 mumsnet posters.

Lots of far right wing identifiers identify with typically more bigoted views. This isn't debatable surely. If some feminists are also holding transphobic views, then the logic follows that they share those views.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. Has someone sold you a line with this? I don’t even call myself a feminist and I can see glaring errors in that logic.

For a start, what do you call transphobic? I think others have asked you to start giving definitions because it does feel that the substance is getting less and less behind your posts.

I have a friend who is a philosophy professor who literally has spent years turning this question over in his writings. It’s not that simple to come to an answer and I’m suspicious of anyone who acts like it is. Literally?? OK! But I think you'll find that many women are debating this, just as many TRAs (note that, not transpeople, the activists that claim to respresent them) insist it is simple TWAW!

And as for your 'friend' ... you really don't need to pull out the 'big guns' to make your point for you! You could have just said that you are suspicious of people who reduce the issue to simplistic terms, your point of view is valid, as worthy of debate as anyone elses! Value yourself!

I believe anything that genuinely threatens women’s safety should go in a favour of women. So a male rapist who then transitions should not be placed in a general population female prison. OK... so it's just what we each consider to be a genuine threat that we may disagree on!

In sports I think beet high barriers should be placed to prevent men from just identifying as female to compete with women - hormones, therapy, maybe even surgery. I think spell check got the better of you there... beet high ?

But - hormones,legislation is already in place, daft levels that are useless in terms of equalising peformance, possibly dangerous to the individual. Therapy? CBT perhaps? "Don't run too fast, hit too hard... it isn't womanly!"?? Surgery? Cutting off a penis or adding breasts isn't ging to change a lifetime of masculinity either!

I don’t however think that having a pre op trans woman in the changing room with me is inherently a threat to my safety and find those arguments a bit over the top. Ah! Yet I do not give you permission to remove my consent! And I an't even begin to put into words just how ridiculous that is.. a man, or male bodied person if your prefer, in a female space, where everyone is, at some point naked, is of no conceivebale threat? Not even a minor discomfort?

Being a woman is still a step down in terms of social power, the idea that men in any significant numbers would choose to identify as female so they can take things that are meant to go to women is difficult for me to believe. And yet we have many, many instances when just that happens... lots and lots and lots of them!

Hard right people are not well know to often hold misogynist, homophobic or xenophobic views?

Can you you give an example of a group considered hard right that do not correlate with any of the above values please?

If we're defining transphobia, I'd suggest that "accusing gender-dysphoric people of being transphobic because they disagree with you" should be in there somewhere.

JKR was right; the reality of biological sex is crucial to understanding gender dysphoria and the difficulties sufferers face. So I'd also volunteer "claiming that sex is mutable and irrelevant" as an example of transphobia.

I think as long as Transphobic = in touch with biological reality, you're going to have a really tough time making it sound like a bad thing to be @cloudyvanilla !

Quite often men who claim to be TRAs make really nasty comments about feminine males or masculine females, (wishing them dead, usually) and then the only people condemning them are radical feminists like us! Total silence from so called 'TRAs'! It's fucked up.

I believe in gender identity yes, surely I've made that clear? I'm not non binary or genderless. I am a woman biologically and I also identify as such.

Yes, you've said you believe in it, but what is it?

What is it about being female that needs you to belive it before it is true?

I'm not trying to be bolshy. I just have no idea what any of that means.

I see gender stereotypes and revel against many of them. I dislike that bit about women being lesser than in society! I can't accept them.

When you say you dientify as such do you mean you introduce yoruself as Mrs Whatsit, have a female name? Or do you know your biology is female and have decided that you agree that it can continue to be so?

I just don't get it!

That list of shit, tho'...

It's basically the trump methodology - lies.

As for misogynist, homophobic or xenophobic views?

I don't spend a lot of time hanging out with the far right; I could tell you how they're caricatured but that's about it. I do hang out with all sorts of leftie types though.

You know who else is known for misogynist, homophobic, and xenophobic views? The far left.

So true @CuriousaboutSamphire