Anyone else's TV pleasure ruined by feminism?

[QuentinWinters]

I was trying to watch "The Social Dilemma" on Netflix yesterday.
It wasjust full of self congratulatory men, either really amazed that their big brains had come up with a difficult ethical question, or really proud they had monetised Facebook, or namedropping the ceo of twitter.
I got so bored of men wanging on I had to turn it off.
I don't know if it was just a really bad programme or if feminism has ruined me!

@QuentinWinters

Oh yes. I hate public proposals too. Very coercive. Love Actually gives me the creeps as well. Its just stalkers. And twilight. It is not romantic for someone to creep into your room and watch you sleep. It's disturbing.

My 12 yo DD wrote an amazing essay for English on why Twilight was creepy and awful, and not in the least romantic. She detailed incidents of gaslighting, coercion, stalking etc - it was a marvel! Never been so proud

I’ve stopped watching crime dramas as I got so fed up with eg Criminal Minds using women’s murders for entertainment. There were some prominent female characters too, but they generally didn’t have as much going on as the more dynamic male leads.

We started watching Des recently about Dennis Nielsen, and as I realised his victims were men, I was shocked and confused, it was such a different dynamic to what we’re used to seeing. (Obviously I’m not saying it was any better that he murdered men instead of women, but for once that feeling of “here we go again” wasn’t there.)

Also loathe Love Actually - and baffled that so many rate it.
Many many times during this pandemic I've looked up films on all the catch up services and given up as they are mostly - woman raped, woman murdered, woman traumatised, man wins summat, man saves the world - OR on ITV - Carry on Films.

@Swallowzandamazons

I'm even noticing it in music. My niece loved a song by the Script, I think, called something like The man who can't be moved.

Dumped bloke sings of sitting for the rest of his life on the corner where he and the object of his affections met, waiting for her to realise the error of her ways and come find him.

A 13 year old thought it was romantic. I just heard "I'm a creepy stalker". I guess at least he wasn't sitting outside his love object's home.

DH is listening to all the Beatles albums in order with the kids on the school run. The other day it was Rubber Soul, which I loved as a teenager. I was shocked on the listen through - as was DH - by how vile it is. A good 80% at least of the songs are just basic misogyny.

There’s also a horrible kind of sneering at women in Pulp and Suede’s lyrics, and probably more that I used to love

Goosefoot we all have our different limits, and while rape isn't necessarily a complete no-go area for me, I do think it has to be handled more carefully than such things as war and non-sexual violence - simply because it isn't anything like a fictional concept for a lot of women. As an example, Theon being tortured over the course of a whole season was deeply unpleasant to watch but it's hardly likely to reflect the direct experience of any viewer and thereby trigger a PTSD response. Whereas about one fifth of all female viewers will have been subjected to sexual violence in their own lives and will probably not appreciate having glossily-produced rape scenes sprung on them - like what happens to Daenerys on her wedding night in the very first episode. It wasn't even a rape scene in the book, so what was the purpose in making it into one for the show, if not to hammer home the Dany-as-victim narrative and make it even more problematic when she has to basically learn how to be good in bed to stop Drogo from raping her?

I really enjoy crime/detective type dramas but am getting increasingly fed up with the way women are portrayed, even in shows that seem on the face of it to be more balanced. I'm also getting fed up with how often it turns out that violent/sexual crimes were in fact carried out/masterminded by a woman. I know that this is partly a (rather lazy) plot twist (and yes, NAMALT/women can be bad people too etc etc) but the frequency is far higher than in the real world it does seem to give out a subtle message that violence etc is not a male issue.

I'm also getting really sick of unnecessary strip club scenes- usually featuring a very sanitised version of a strip club with women very much in charge, plenty of female customers, most customers just sitting having a few drinks and conversation etc.

I'm also getting fed up with how often it turns out that violent/sexual crimes were in fact carried out/masterminded by a woman. I know that this is partly a (rather lazy) plot twist (and yes, NAMALT/women can be bad people too etc etc) but the frequency is far higher than in the real world it does seem to give out a subtle message that violence etc is not a male issue.

I've noticed this too and it pisses me right off. I know fiction often relies on the unexpected plot twist, and male violence is about as unexpected as "Dog bites Man", but even so, it's tiresome.

Let's face it, no men are ever going to be watching Working Moms!

Well, I tuned in. Great show, though after “that” season finale (spoiler alert) I didn’t have the heart to continue.

@boriselbow

I really enjoy crime/detective type dramas but am getting increasingly fed up with the way women are portrayed, even in shows that seem on the face of it to be more balanced. I'm also getting fed up with how often it turns out that violent/sexual crimes were in fact carried out/masterminded by a woman. I know that this is partly a (rather lazy) plot twist (and yes, NAMALT/women can be bad people too etc etc) but the frequency is far higher than in the real world it does seem to give out a subtle message that violence etc is not a male issue.

I'm also getting really sick of unnecessary strip club scenes- usually featuring a very sanitised version of a strip club with women very much in charge, plenty of female customers, most customers just sitting having a few drinks and conversation etc.

This. So, this.

Also, for all its purported "historical accuracy", I've read a hilarious take-down of it by a military historian pointing out that GRR Martin has no understanding of Medieval warfare, no grasp on tactics, strategy or logistics, and just teleports armies around the (unrealistically huge) map as the plot requires.

Was that this? acoup.blog/2019/05/28/new-acquisitions-not-how-it-was-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-i/

I'm a huge fan of that blog because I love understanding historical detail and this guy really does detail well. And readably. He's done LoTR too (books and movies...)

As well as the gratuitous violence against women in a lot of TV procedurals, I also loathe the brilliant, workaholic male detectives (or other team leads) with empty personal lives who rely on their female colleagues for all their emotional labour (and admin), take crazy risks because if their maverick genius and are cosseted and indulged by every female character. I found Wallander (at least in the UK version) to be a particularly egregious example of this. DCI Mathias in Hinterland is similarly irritating, but at least it's presented as a character flaw, rather than the natural order of the world.

I feel like Pulp were more often leering than sneering. Not that that's any better.

Also, watching Black Books with dd 14. Although it's a great show, it feels like a step backwards from all the Bechdel-approved stuff I started her off with. I'll admit i haven't seen every episode, but why doesn't Fran have any female friends?! At least not any that get to share the screen with her?!

We also started the vicar of dibley because I wanted to share the 90s tasticness with her. I'm not sure - on one hand she has Alice to talk to - but on the other hand she only has Alice to talk to. And Mrs Cropley (sp?) who really only talks about cakes and sandwiches. And that's it: three female characters in a 'female led' show.

And then there's the fact the whole show is about either worshipping a man or shagging a man.

Oh no I think you lot may have ruined Love Actually for me 😆

I'm with a previous poster who mentioned Everybody Loves Raymond. It is similar to the Simpsons.

Capable intelligent women married to idiotic men who they tolerate and supposedly love. Why is that funny? And what does it say about relationships between men and women?

My sons love the Simpsons and it's always on in our house. This thread has made me realise what it is that I don't like about it. It can be very funny, but I just feel a bit sad about Marge's life and what she puts up with.

@Yoyomar

Oh no I think you lot may have ruined Love Actually for me 😆

I'm with a previous poster who mentioned Everybody Loves Raymond. It is similar to the Simpsons.

Capable intelligent women married to idiotic men who they tolerate and supposedly love. Why is that funny? And what does it say about relationships between men and women?

My sons love the Simpsons and it's always on in our house. This thread has made me realise what it is that I don't like about it. It can be very funny, but I just feel a bit sad about Marge's life and what she puts up with.

If the relationships board on Mumsnet is indicative, that's actually a pretty realistic set up for a lot of women. I think that sadly there are an awful lot of women out there married to men who are willfully incompetent at home. And they do love these men, either because they don't think they can hope for better, or because he has a lot of other good qualities that make them willing to compromise.

I'd love to see a programme that shows how grindingly exhaustingly awful it is for the women though, to always have to be the ones to put things right and to carry the mental load. And to show the men are clearly being selfish, rather than just 'aw look at him, what is he like?' eye rolling.

If the relationships board on Mumsnet is indicative, that's actually a pretty realistic set up for a lot of women. I think that sadly there are an awful lot of women out there married to men who are willfully incompetent at home. And they do love these men, either because they don't think they can hope for better, or because he has a lot of other good qualities that make them willing to compromise.

Absolutely to this. Although I never encounter this in real life, I find the 'Gawd bless them, they can't see dirt, and dress the toddler in a bikini and wellies for a February school run, tee hee!' attitude one of the most tiresome and unexpected bits of Mn. And yes, I realise it's a coping mechanism from overburdened women who are normalising an unequal dynamic, but it does perpetuate the problem by passing on, and rendering comic, domestic inequality and strategic incompetence.

I've ruined films for my DD. Most 'romcoms' are sexist with more than a hint of stalking and coercive control.
She gets really cross about it(she's12)

I've noticed this too and it pisses me right off. I know fiction often relies on the unexpected plot twist, and male violence is about as unexpected as "Dog bites Man", but even so, it's tiresome.

The problem is, it's so overused that you're expecting the 'plot twist'.

@JimmyJabs

Goosefoot we all have our different limits, and while rape isn't necessarily a complete no-go area for me, I do think it has to be handled more carefully than such things as war and non-sexual violence - simply because it isn't anything like a fictional concept for a lot of women. As an example, Theon being tortured over the course of a whole season was deeply unpleasant to watch but it's hardly likely to reflect the direct experience of any viewer and thereby trigger a PTSD response. Whereas about one fifth of all female viewers will have been subjected to sexual violence in their own lives and will probably not appreciate having glossily-produced rape scenes sprung on them - like what happens to Daenerys on her wedding night in the very first episode. It wasn't even a rape scene in the book, so what was the purpose in making it into one for the show, if not to hammer home the Dany-as-victim narrative and make it even more problematic when she has to basically learn how to be good in bed to stop Drogo from raping her?

The changes to that scene were strange and ineffective, though I suspect they were at least partly attempting to avoid the criticism of minimising forced marriages. As became apparent, the producers were rather lacking in terms of their own storytelling skills or psychological insight and often when they made changes, even justified ones, they didn't really seem to consider the knock-on effects to character development or the plot more generally.

I don't entirely agree with you that many people haven't experienced the other kinds of violence that the show depicts, I think experiences of living in a war zone or other very violent situation aren't nearly as unusual as people imagine. Probably not one in five, but I'm not convinced the number itself matters that much, if some people are impacted they are impacted. But quite a lot of women don't find the sexual violence on GoT upsetting in that way - viewing stats suggest that fans are only slightly less likely to be women which seems to suggest to me that it doesn't make it seriously less appealing to women.

Some people just will not want to watch certain types of material - my husband had to clean up quite a number of torture victims at one point in his career, and as a result doesn't much like to watch, or even read, anything involving that kind of violence. But usually it's not a complete surprise when you find it in films, if you don't want to see that sort of thing.

I was much more unhappy about the way they dealt with "consensual" nudity, prostitution to some extent, and also just trying to push the envelope in terms of showing off parts of people's bodies.

@CaraDuneRedux

I'm also getting fed up with how often it turns out that violent/sexual crimes were in fact carried out/masterminded by a woman. I know that this is partly a (rather lazy) plot twist (and yes, NAMALT/women can be bad people too etc etc) but the frequency is far higher than in the real world it does seem to give out a subtle message that violence etc is not a male issue.

I've noticed this too and it pisses me right off. I know fiction often relies on the unexpected plot twist, and male violence is about as unexpected as "Dog bites Man", but even so, it's tiresome.

I think this has to be looked at in terms of the whole of crimes that are shown in thrillers or police procedurals, though.

Most murders are not that thrilling, mysterious, or interesting, they tend to be things like people killed as a result of drugs or gangs, almost always men. But that's significantly underrepresented in most tv mysteries or thrillers, even on shows that tend to be about a whole police force though you see more of it there.

Most tend to like domestic killings, or sometime bizarre work related ones, often where the means of death is unusual or difficult to figure out, where there are a lot of personal relationships to be explored. The misrepresent victims in terms of class or wealth pretty significantly too.

I had never thought of that before but it so true. Murder victim = attractive professional woman. When in reality in my local area, murder victims are often (but obviously not always) people leading troubled and chaotic lives. But I suppose those people don't get the audience sympathy that a glamorous young lady fumbling for her keys in a dark car park gets.

What % of victims in tv crime dramas are women?

@4minutes33

Let's face it, no men are ever going to be watching Working Moms!

Well, I tuned in. Great show, though after “that” season finale (spoiler alert) I didn’t have the heart to continue.

I got DP to rewatch it with me to give him a little insight into the fun and games of juggling career and parenthood which he has magically missed out on with his DCs! I did warn him first - there’s lots of boobs in it, but not in a way that you’ll enjoy

I have found my people!! Many things I watch make me shout at the TV. The most infuriating at the moment is the arm grab. In everything from teen movies, thrillers, comedies. Left, right and centre men grab women at their elbow to stop them walking away or to turn them round of just for effect.These aren't even necessarily in moments of anger. Just fairly regularly conversations. In real life, I would flip if a man did that to me. I can regularly be heard shouting 'STOP GRABBING HER ARM'

I think there is a sort of cultural conditioning in women that makes us reluctant to speak up against artworks that make us feel uncomfortable in their overt misogyny. When I say "artwork" I'm talking in a broad sense which includes tv shows and film, but I'm thinking also about the "great" books of the 50s-70s which are much revered by male critics and readers. Kate Millett deconstructs this sort of thing better than I can, and I'm sure Jeanette Winterson has written about this in relation to Lolita.

Basically, you have these great cultural monoliths that are considered to reflect the universal human experience and which are beyond criticism, but in reality they're written from an entirely male perspective and if there are any women present at all, they usually end up being raped, humiliated, killed, or otherwise diminished. Men don't notice because it doesn't occur to them to look, so when a woman ventures to say "Actually, this book is full of misogyny and I don't think it's even a good read", she gets shot down, told it's beyond her understanding, that she's being small-minded and provincial, and that women have an unrealistic view of the world if they expect anyone to ever get a happy ending.

I think we're getting more confident about arguing our point these days, but there are also still a lot of women who don't want to be cast as a drag or bore. You can say the same of women who say they're fine with their partners watching porn or paying for a lap dance while privately wishing they could say they're not happy with it at all.

Totally JimmyJabs I trace it back to the “sex positive” mid90s backlash against feminism. It explains the very short school skirt trend imo. I’m so glad below the knee skirts were acceptable when I was at school.