Chair of LGBT APPG complains that deals worked out behind the scenes not adhered too

[Kit19]

“In privately agreeing a way forward with the wider LGBT+ lobby both in parliament & outside”

Nice to have it confirmed that this was all being sewn up behind closed doors

@Escapeplanning

Next job on the to do list Datun.

🤣

Between buying my blood pressure medication in bulk, and industrial amounts of gin at cash-and-carry with which to wash it down, I don't have any time left.

Unbelievable.

www.conservativehome.com/platform/2020/07/crispin-blunt-and-sue-pascoe-its-time-to-correct-the-stoking-of-alarm-and-spreading-of-misinformation-about-trans-people.html

Blunt and Pascoe explaining how women lie.

Posters here on FWR, sadly a number of them now removed from (or have left the site) for the crime of being right, hunted down and exposed a number of the shady goings on regarding this and here we have a sitting MP openly, brazenly and without a hint of regret or contrition confirming that democracy, transparency and the rule of law was subject to back room shenanigans, secret meetings and deals. It's an absolute fucking disgrace, but hey it's only women who were being thrown to the wolves.

@Escapeplanning

www.conservativehome.com/platform/2020/07/crispin-blunt-and-sue-pascoe-its-time-to-correct-the-stoking-of-alarm-and-spreading-of-misinformation-about-trans-people.html

Blunt and Pascoe explaining how women lie.

. Sue Pascoe is Acting Area Chairman of the Conservative Women’s Organisation in North and East Yorkshire.

Fuck-a-doodle-do.

I think it's quite funny tbh. Crispin and his gang went off to a meeting with his Christmas present list all written out nicely and the Equality Committee nods along nicely like ladies must, with an enigmatic smile when asked if Santa was going to bring all the presents. Of course the chaps toddled off knowing that the Ladies will do as they are told, who would even think anything else is possible, that's what ladies are for.

Sadly there is no Santa and we won't jump even for an ex Captain of the Royal Hussars. How disappointing. Your thank you note can go up the chimney in smoke like your present list did.

Or is the expectation that non binary people want partial transitions such as a bit of testosterone or oestrogen? A bit of surgery thrown in but not enough to actually be a transitioner in the true sense of the word?

It has to be this for non-binaries. There isn't any need for medical input for documentation as per the GRA so I can't think of another reason.

I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again because it underlines how deeply sexist the whole ideology is.

"AMAB" [sic] non-binary person - stick on a bit of lippy, eyeliner and dress with a bit of swish. You're good to go. Access all areas, just as you are.

"AFAB" [sic] non-binary person - your body is faulty and must be corrected with a double mastectomy.

Once again, men are seen as default humans, women as merely performance art.

So they are concerned about the massive long waitlists for trans people, the lack of trained specialists, the lack of support and intervention when 50% of trans people attempt suicide. They grudgingly welcome the shorter wait times and new clinics. But they are stamping their feet in rage that the government didn't implement their proposal which is....er...to entirely de-medicalise everything and bring in self-ID.

I'm sorry, but what? If their core concerns are the high suicide rate, poor mental health, and lack of adequate trans healthcare, then how on earth is scrapping the requirement to get trans health care and counselling going to help with that? Unless the idea is that by introducing self ID these desperately suicidal people who are begging for specialist gender treatment will suddenly not want or need it anymore. Eh? How does any of what they are saying follow?

The trans lobby really has to decide among themselves whether being trans is a medical condition that requires specialised treatment, or whether it is an identity. These two things don't mesh easily together. It seems on the one hand they want their gender clinics, and their hormones, and the facial feminisation surgery, and gender confirmation surgery, and hair removal; but on the other hand they also want to say that this isn't a medical condition at all and they just want to be free to identify as women.

The parents of SEN children could probably
educate
the TRAs about what a real battle for recognition, support, funding, healthcare etc looks like

5 years is an average wait for a funded EHCP after all.

The tone of this thread is awful.

Yes the TRA lobby has gone too far and women's rights and freedoms are potentially impacted and it is completely appropriate that we push back and point out these issues. I am overall pleased with the GRA changes and bloody thrilled that self-ID as originally mooted has not gone through, but, I think some posters forget that at the heart of the trans movement, when you strip away the bullying AGPs and the campaigning NUS flashers and the angry young men with baseball bats, there is a core of really confused and desperate (mostly young) people looking for help from society at large.

These kids grow up in such a defined and labelled world, it is surely no surprise that some of them choose to define themselves as neither boy nor girl. Their distress and not fitting into what they perceive as the world's boxes is no less acute than those who can define their distress by a need to be perceived as the opposite sex.

Please don't mock them. NB makes no sense to those of us who 'just are' male or female and have no 'feeling' about it, but to these sufferers it is acute.

We live in an age of such black and white: our daughters are under pressure almost from the moment they emerge into the world to accept being judged on looks, to be pleasing, to be caring. Our sons are judged on how physical and energetic and outgoing they are. It is really no wonder that so many of the most thoughtful, least 'gender normative' kids are struggling to understand their own place right now.

If I could come up with a way to sort the genuinely troubled (dysphoric) from the 'I want it so much' ( euphoric/fetishists) or the 'it will make prison easier/get me into my ex-wife's shelter/ get some of the protections removed from the children or women I want to prey on' (evil bastards), then I would happily move over to help the former group; whether they are struggling with their sex and want to try a full physical transition, or their gender and want a partial one, or even just a social one. If transition will help them then I think that's ok and I doubt those people would be concerned about keeping the protections for women in place.

Stonewall chose to redefine trans to include cross dressers and fetishists. Women are right to fight to protect our safety. Can we please do this without using language which makes us as bad as the bullying TRA ally lobby?

Can we please do this without using language which makes us as bad as the bullying TRA ally lobby?

I don't think anything in this thread comes close to rape and death threats. Please don't make false equivalences.

The demands being made by these organisations are nonsensical and completely deserving of scrutiny. The wording in document was non binary adults so we aren't talking about children here.

From the Blunt Pascoe commentary:

”Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.”

There’s a link in this statement, which I assumed led to evidence of the emerging evidence. It goes to another document, written by endocrinologists... which uses the same wording but fails to provide a link with evidence. There’s very little evidence, a fact acknowledged by almost all doctors, even the most fanatical transactivists. Claims made with no back-up are the order of the day.

@OvaHere

Can we please do this without using language which makes us as bad as the bullying TRA ally lobby?

I don't think anything in this thread comes close to rape and death threats. Please don't make false equivalences.

The demands being made by these organisations are nonsensical and completely deserving of scrutiny. The wording in document was non binary adults so we aren't talking about children here.

Definitely not. I couldn't believe the unspeakable shit thrown at JKR that was highlighted by Titania McGrath. I don't think the minds of feminist women would ever posses the capacity to sink to that.

You see, I do have sympathy with individuals struggling to make sense of a very polarised, sexist, pornified society, where a young woman might easily look at society and think "but I'm not a sex doll who likes being abused... so I guess I'm not a proper woman", or a young man might easily look at society and think "but I'm not some sort of barbarous brute who wants to anally rape every woman I come across, down ten pints of lager then get into a street brawl on a Saturday night."

However, I reserve the right to say that I don't think "non-binary" is an actual thing (even if mistakenly believing themselves to be non-binary brings some individuals temporary solace). Our energy would be far better put into challenging the hideous norms of a porn-sick, sexist, violent society.

And I also reserve the right to critique the fact that even the concept of non-binary is sexist in its execution, in that for non-binary men, expressing oneself seems to consist solely in the performance of "femininity", whereas for non-binary women, expressing oneself seems to consist in lopping off perfectly healthy breast tissue. Male as default human, yet again.

ODFOx, the outrage on this thread is overwhelming directed at a sitting MP who has openly admitted dong secret, private deals to have legislation enacted without scrutiny which would not hear, nor take into account the needs and wants of the group of people who will be most negatively affected and disadvantaged by it.

On the subject of non-binary, as the poster above says we are talking about adults, but even if we were talking about children you cannot enact and enforce a law on the woolly, undefined spiel that surrounds the issue of non-binary.

Most people - children, teenagers and adults struggle at some point in their lives with their place in the world. Most people don't fit into gender boxes and nor should they.

Anyoldprion
"Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.”

I went looking for that 'evidence' too and found absolutely nothing with each link. Interesting too how with each repeat the 'evidence' grows so that by the time Pascoe and Blunt claim it it has become 'considerable scientific evidence' and 'durable'. In reality it's just repeated empty bullshit.

"Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.”

A couple of years back we were bombarded on here on a daily basis with threads about the "science". A fair few mumsnetters came along to demolish it all line by line which led to lots of rage and flouncing.

If Pascoe actually read what women write on here instead of just repeating hearsay about fear mongering they wouldn't be making a fool of themselves by publishing such silly debunked stuff. But there they go, Blunt too, demanding the government educate us, despite the fact that it's the incoherent laughable "education" from trans organisations that has prompted us to do our own research.

In a word - Clownfish.

@RedDogsBeg

Posters here on FWR, sadly a number of them now removed from (or have left the site) for the crime of being right, hunted down and exposed a number of the shady goings on regarding this and here we have a sitting MP openly, brazenly and without a hint of regret or contrition confirming that democracy, transparency and the rule of law was subject to back room shenanigans, secret meetings and deals. It's an absolute fucking disgrace, but hey it's only women who were being thrown to the wolves.

This, this, this. And if like me you're a lesbian, the knowledge that this was all planned and facilitated by people like Ruth Hunt in the name of LGBT adds an extra layer of betrayal. How dare they say they include the L as if we were all informed and fine and dandy with it.

I've been banging on about this since 2007. Us lesbians were the canaries in the mine. Many of us have been dumped by friends and organisations and workplaces, shunned, told we're boring and paranoid and much, much worse. And here it is, not merely proof that this was a secret deal that women didn't need to know about, old boy, but they're crowing about it, unaware of what it says about them. There needs to be a major enquiry.

Just wanted to note that an APPG is not an outside lobby group unduly influencing politicians. It's an inside one, made out of politicians seeking to influence government policy.

All Party Parliamentary Groups have, as the name suggests, members made up of (mostly) elected politicians from all parties, from the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

None of that takes away from the justfied criticism in this thread, of course, especially since there is no APPG specifically for women's rights.

Here is the most up-to-date register of APPGs. It's 1006 pages long, and there are various APPGs related to women's issues, like Endometriosis or Ovarian cancer, like Women in the Penal System, Women's Health or Women's Football, Domestic Abuse and Domestic Violence and Abuse^ (although the latter two do not mention women in what are admittedly very brief descriptions).

However, these are not official parliamentary bodies, nor are they Select Committees. These are just informal groups for like-minded people. Who, at leadt in this case, nonetheless expect to be ablw to do backroom deals with the government.

^at least

FFS. Forgive the typos.

Great post yourhairiswinterfire

beargrass ‘s link to the Nolan principles consultation is very important in relation to any instances of government officials or public bodies like EHRC and their involvement with womens’ groups in key discussions (or lack of).

There needs to be a major enquiry.

There absolutely does and it needs to go back right to start of where all this started.

Women were neither considered nor consulted about this, we were not asked if we wanted, or would agree to having our unique sex category reduced to a name and a style of dress/presentation in order to assuage the feelings of males.

Our safety, privacy, dignity and comfort was neither here nor there, we didn't matter. Someone on the GEO twitter feed arguing about the so called spousal veto even said as much, the exact words An individuals right to self identity should take precedence over another persons comfort even if they are a spouse.

I never have and never will agree to having the band-with of what it means to be a woman expanded by men saying they are women, and that's why women were never asked, they knew what the answer would be.

The war being waged on lesbians is utterly horrific and you're quite right you were the canaries in the coal mine.

There absolutely does and it needs to go back right to start of where all this started.

That would have to go back to 2002, when the government lost its case at the European Court of Human Rights and accepted it had to allow homosexual transsexuals to marry.

From the outset, not only was the impact on women of men legally changing sex never once considered, but the government actively disparaged anyone who even tried to do so.

From 2002 to 2004, when the Gender Recognition Act was signed into law, the government also actively misled the public about the population it sought to protect. (As seen in the House of Lords debates and all written texts about the issue, whether letters to constituents, between politicians, briefing notes for use in press enquiries and so on.)