Judith Butler has spoken

[lionheart]

Damn.

www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times

'If we look closely at the example that you characterise as “mainstream” we can see that a domain of fantasy is at work, one which reflects more about the feminist who has such a fear than any actually existing situation in trans life. The feminist who holds such a view presumes that the penis does define the person, and that anyone with a penis would identify as a woman for the purposes of entering such changing rooms and posing a threat to the women inside. It assumes that the penis is the threat, or that any person who has a penis who identifies as a woman is engaging in a base, deceitful, and harmful form of disguise. This is a rich fantasy, and one that comes from powerful fears, but it does not describe a social reality. Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathrooms, and their modes of self-identification are ways of describing a lived reality, one that cannot be captured or regulated by the fantasies brought to bear upon them. The fact that such fantasies pass as public argument is itself cause for worry.'

Yes, rich fantasies are certainly the problem here. We agree on that at least. Ugh. Awful, awful shite.

It doesn't sound as if she has paid much attention to the actual debates.

But as for those 'rich fantasies' ...

Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathroom

So? Why tell women to move over to accommodate them? Tell men to sort out their shit and stop discriminating against males who present differently to them.

God, she’s useless. Can’t understand how her nonsense became so popular.

She is ridiculous.

"The fact that such fantasies pass as public argument is in itself cause for worry."
That could certainly be said, with more empirical support, about the other side. And about much of Butler's writings.

She just says that we are hysterical and worried over nothing and we should quiet our overactive imaginations.
My nine year old daughter and I go to the community pool on Friday afternoon. Obviously, covid has disrupted this ritual but we were there last week. I refuse to accept the display of a penis in that space as anything other than a crime. We have always known that to be a crime and I'm not going to teach my daughter to ignore that. It's about dignity.

I never understood why she was so hyped in the first place.

How dare she appropriate the name of feminist for herself, that patriarchy-serving male supremacist.

There isn’t a single honest bone in her body.

I liked the FB comments. There were, I thought, a surprising number of men saying "this is bollocks". Tbh, I tried to read the interview and thought "what a windbag". Amazing how someone so impenetrable can get people to actually read her efforts.

I don't get where the link is between the 'fantasies' she describes to start with which seem to be related to women's concept of penises, and the sentence that follows: Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathrooms.

It sounds like so much of the transwaffle that gets put out.

So glad I cancelled the New Statesman.

@lionheart

Damn.

www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times

'If we look closely at the example that you characterise as “mainstream” we can see that a domain of fantasy is at work, one which reflects more about the feminist who has such a fear than any actually existing situation in trans life. The feminist who holds such a view presumes that the penis does define the person, and that anyone with a penis would identify as a woman for the purposes of entering such changing rooms and posing a threat to the women inside. It assumes that the penis is the threat, or that any person who has a penis who identifies as a woman is engaging in a base, deceitful, and harmful form of disguise. This is a rich fantasy, and one that comes from powerful fears, but it does not describe a social reality. Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathrooms, and their modes of self-identification are ways of describing a lived reality, one that cannot be captured or regulated by the fantasies brought to bear upon them. The fact that such fantasies pass as public argument is itself cause for worry.'

That's a lot of word salad to deny a very simple reality.

Male bodies pose a statistical risk to female bodies. A declared gender identity does not change that body, nor the statistical risk, as the evidence clearly shows. The only fantastical thing here is her use of deliberate obfuscation to smear feminists pointing out this basic, wholly relevant fact.

She's the academic Wizard behind the linguistic curtain, and I for one am tired of her bullshit.

'The fact that such fantasies pass as public argument is itself cause for worry.' Oh, isn't it just.

Amazing how someone so impenetrable can get people to actually read her efforts.

The impenetrable style is part of the schtick. You need to be made to feel that her brand of philosophy is very deep and can only be grasped by vair, vair intellectual academics. It's Emperor's New Clothes time, and nobody wants to be the one to point out the bullshit in case everyone thinks they're stupid.

I'm not stupid, and she's not only talking bollocks, she's talking disingenuous, manipulative, self serving bollocks too.

@JellySlice

Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathroom

So? Why tell women to move over to accommodate them? Tell men to sort out their shit and stop discriminating against males who present differently to them.

This.

I've had enough of being polite, fuck it. Teach men to stop being pricks to non conforming members of their own sex class and stop demanding women pay for men's shitty behaviour.

Fuck off the lot of these lecturing twats, and leave women and children the fuck alone.

Yon one's high on her own farts.
Embarrassing.

It does sound mad. The more I read these older academics the more I think their mind drifts off while they are speaking and they don't know what's coming out. I've done some lecturing and where it's a section that's been repeated many times I have been in a sort of automatic mode where words are coming out but I'm not really driving.

She sounds like she has just opened her mouth and let all the well worn piffle flow out in any random order. It's really shite. And that's been edited.!

I shall translate: You shall be shamed if you do not let the penis bearers do whatever they want. Your function as non-penis bearers is to make penis bearers happy. There is no reason at all to be cautious or careful around penis bearers, and any woman who suggests there is a reason is a liar because penis bearers need to get away from other penis bearers for their own safety.

The Wizard analogy is a good one.

It is outrageous and hideously misognyistic to dismiss these issues as fantasy.

Women have repeatedly brought the evidence (the data, the statistics, the science) to bear on these debates.

She seems to view gender as foundational. But gender consists of all the rules and roles and stereotypes a particular culture has assigned to a particular biological sex.

I find that retrogressive. Gender norms and stereotypes are one of the principal ways women have been kept subjugated,, and deifying them won't protect anyone from sexism and similar ills. And those ills know exactly what a woman is, sadly, even if Butler doesn't quite know how to define a woman.

FloralBunting: It reminds me of the phrase 'dancing round the sacred dick'.

Used by Julian Clary in his stage show (probably around the time Gender Trouble came out).

I know Judith Butler in a professional capacity. Her department is a complete mess of Title IX allegations and a culture of 'indebted' graduate students who deserve better. Glass houses.

Padding out a pre-existing belief with flowery language.
At least someone writing 'TWAW you bigots' wastes less of my time.
I'm guessing she didn't write that while locked in a cell with Karen White.