Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A cheer from the Spectator to us Mumsneters on the FWR board

115 replies

highame · 22/09/2020 14:05

www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-women-won-the-war-against-gender-self-id-

A pat on the back for grassroots women. Lovely read. Thanks James

OP posts:
Mammatino · 22/09/2020 14:34

Hurray For FWR. Thanks James. Yes that petition is a bit of a joke it seems to have been enthusiastically signed by youth from around the world...just like the 70% of the British public and their template letters regarding the GRA. That worked too.

yourhairiswinterfire · 22/09/2020 14:38

@ErrolTheDragon

Maybe the time is ripe for a debate in Parliament. Better than #nodebate, anyway.
Definitely.

I only know about these issues because of MN. There will still be many, many people oblivious to this. A debate in parliament will open so many eyes. Bring it on, I say.

Milicentbystander72 · 22/09/2020 14:41

Just came on to post the same article link.

It's very true that without Feminism Board here I would never have known about this issue at all, or I would have dismissed it as a 'fringe' language war between Transactivists and Radical feminists.

I'm now well informed!

ChattyLion · 22/09/2020 14:43

Brew waves back. Good article!

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 22/09/2020 14:45

Heartening to read this after the depressing BS emanating from the BMA. Thanks Spectator!

DonkeySkin · 22/09/2020 14:53

Wouldn't be a bad thing for the GRA to be debated in parliament.

As Kirkup says, politicians have been shirking their responsibility to examine how the law is operating in this arena for too long. I would like to see questions raised about how convicted male sex offenders have been able to obtain GRCs under the current system, and how violent male prisoners with and without GRCs have been able to transfer to the female estate.

The Freddy McConnell court case needs discussing too - it's a prime example of the sort of legal and ontological absurdity that GRCs can create, demonstrating that they don't just impact on the holder (in this case, McConnell argued that a GRC gives McConnell the right to falsify their child's birth certificate, creating the dystopian fiction of a child born with no biological mother).

Maybe some bold politician might even raise the question of whether the GRA itself is bad law, and that legally conflating sex and 'gender identity' is what has created all these endless battles in the first place.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 22/09/2020 14:55

Grin the Spectator has been very supportive of women on this issue, so thank you to them. They deserve their increased subscription numbers.

Annasgirl · 22/09/2020 15:01

Yes I started to subscribe thanks to the Hadley article and then I saw Julie Bindel writing - she wrote an excellent article on RBG, but the comments section was so depressing. Between that, and the awful comments on the Irish Times site this morning, under a short article explaining "mansplaining", I fear that women are only at the start of a long, long, war with misogynists who seem to congregate almost exclusively online.

Milicentbystander72 · 22/09/2020 15:05

I also subscribed to The Spectator via the FWR board and also hearing the name of Douglas Murray and I went off to read his books. Hearing Douglas wrote for The Spectator too cemented it for me.

I haven't been disappointed.

Deltoids1 · 22/09/2020 15:06

Just had a proper guffaw when reading James’ article. waves
He walks among us as I suspect many other well known do.

Have just subscribed to the Spectator and a thank you. Been meaning to do it for weeks as their reporting has been excellent recently.

DaisiesandButtercups · 22/09/2020 15:07

@TherapistInATabard

A young gay man of my acquaintance who is at university and heavily involved in the NUS and LGBTetc rights has shared a link to a petition to reform the GRA. It’s got 94,729 signatures so far, so won’t be long until it’s 100,000 and ‘considered for debate in parliament’. It’s far from over, but I think the right people are being heard now.
My oldest told me it was on everybody’s “story” on Instagram yesterday. Wasn’t feeling great about it as it highlighted real life friends who support the TRA line. DC is GC. I imagine there are a lot of teenagers signing it.
Milicentbystander72 · 22/09/2020 15:08

Just to add that some of the comments are terribly misogynistic on any article centring Women or the Trans issue though. Disappointed by that. Lots of
"Silly women. Women wanted feminism and now they're not happy either!" type of comments. Which is not only misogynistic but planning not understanding the issue.

Waspie · 22/09/2020 15:19

I am probably being naive, but I can't see the harm in having a debate. Isn't that what Stonewall and the TRAs haven't wanted and Feminist groups have wanted for so long? Seems to me that this petition is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

I am very pleased about Liz Truss' announcement today. I'm sad it wasn't a full revocation of the GRA, as it's totally unfit for purpose, but I am glad that it seems to lay down the three different terms: gender identity, legal sex and biological sex as distinct entities.

persistentwoman · 22/09/2020 15:19

Agreed Milicentbystander72 That's why I ignore the comments on the Spectator. BUT it's worth noting that the comments btl in the Times are now mostly respectful and informed. Once much of their male readership understood the threats to free speech, children and everyone's rights to safety, privacy and dignity from the opposite sex, there was a sea change in attitude. The last JKR article had hundreds of informed and supportive comments from men.
Once the #nodebate was exploded by all the courageous feminists / women's groups / FWR and a number of journalists, Janice Turner, James Kirkup, Andrew Gilligan and the rest, (shouldn't have started a list as there are now so many of them, especially at the Times ), then the sunlight exposed what had been happening in secret.
I know there's still a mountain to climb, especially with children but today I'm feeling positive.

LetMeJustLookAtTheFuckingHam · 22/09/2020 15:20

Well this article is nice for all the everyone ignores the feminist section as you're just an echo chamber of middle aged harridans spouting transphobia so it's completely useless and pointless posts that pop up regularly from new usernames whack a mole style.

Ha.

noimkaren · 22/09/2020 15:21

Any views

noimkaren · 22/09/2020 15:22

What are the views/consensus on the WEP attempts to move the conversation

jhuizinga · 22/09/2020 15:24

Thank you, James. It's because of your articles that I have a subscription to the Spectator (something that a few years ago as a then lifelong dyed in the wool Guardian reader, I couldn't have imagined reading). I don't agree with everything I read in the Spectator, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I do tend to avoid the below the line comments though.

noimkaren · 22/09/2020 15:26

Apologies - wonky wifi.
Any views or consensus on WEP consultation as reported in The Guardian? Has anyone joined to get heard?

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/17/womens-equality-party-runs-consultation-on-self-identification-for-trans-people

highame · 22/09/2020 15:31

The thing about the crappy comments is, that it can be fun to do a bit of bating. Don't be shrinking violets, let the bastards know what you think.

It's not MN and they are fair game Grin, they love free speech after all

OP posts:
Milicentbystander72 · 22/09/2020 15:32

PersistentWoman that's very encouraging. I feel like the Spectator commentators have a long way to go to get to that point but I'm hopeful. A lot of them seem to have the standard "it's so SILLY" attitude which surprises me as the relevant articles are frequent and well read.

I feel positive too but am worried about the pushback. I just dared venture into the cesspit of Twitter and some TRA's are claiming a victory.

AbsintheFriends · 22/09/2020 15:33

James Kirkup is brilliant.

I'd be happy to see a debate in parliament. One of the things I've always found most shocking about all of this was the open admission (from James Morton??) that their deliberate tactic was to get legislation through under the public radar, and their triumphant self-congratulation at using equal marriage as the trojan horse. (Think I've got those details right - forgive if not.)

Let's actually examine ALL the implications legal fiction that people can change sex, from ALL angles. Let's scrutinise ALL the consequences of that law, intended and unintended. Bring it on.

Milicentbystander72 · 22/09/2020 15:33

You're right highame I need to just get stuck in!!

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 22/09/2020 15:36

@highame

The thing about the crappy comments is, that it can be fun to do a bit of bating. Don't be shrinking violets, let the bastards know what you think.

It's not MN and they are fair game Grin, they love free speech after all

Grin
Joisanofthedales · 22/09/2020 15:37

A step in the right direction but sadly the war is not won yet