Douglas Murray on Joe Rogan: “Politicians are using trans rights as a bartering ram for something else”.

[RandomGel]

More light. In this podcast Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray discuss many issues but there is a great discussion on identity politics.

Quite rightly Douglas Murray describes politicians as using trans rights as a battering ram for something else.

Joe Rogan refers to the TRA mantra “there is no such thing as biological sex” as ridiculous.

It’s heartening to see Abigail Shearer and Debra Soh referenced and praised for taking a stand, living their truth and refusing to go along with the crowd.

It is longer than 2 hours long but it is really is worth a listen. I certainly don’t agree with everything but much sense is spoken particularly around identity politics and the medicalisation of children as being something we will look back on with abject horror. I am so glad that these debates are happening and on such a large platform.

1.7 million views,18,000 comments from a posting of 2 days ago.

I have no idea what the way forward is for the University. I left HE after over a decade a few years ago, and when I look back, the turning point was a span of a few years when a lot of the older Baby Boomer professors retired.

What we were left with was a bunch of GenX academics who seemed oddly naive, and a lot of GenY early career academics who didn't seem to have a solid general education behind them (their grammar was bonkers).

Personally, I blame the REF in all its incarnations back to the mid '90s. The desperation to prove research excellence for funding just meant that everything in the arts, humanities and social sciences went all "angels dancing on pin heads" obscurantist in an attempt to carve out a specialist field from nothing.

In that climate, "queering" everything was a salvation for stressed departments, who, up until that point, had done a pretty good job of churning out twenty-somethings who could actually think.

a carefully curated reality reinforced by an education system that now rewards performative actions and a increasingly partisan media which presents opinions as facts

I think that is key. There are so many dysfunctional aspects of the current paradigm and its religious parallels are explicit. Original sin. Heretics. Articles of faith. A warped reward system where permanent manufactured outrage is evidence of moral righteousness. This Manichean ideology tolerates no dissent. It is based on denunciations and demands endless self flaggelation. This seems to have a curious appeal for the middle class white 'liberals' who adopt it. There is something very strange happening, echoes of Salem and Paris 1789.

This Manichean ideology tolerates no dissent. It is based on denunciations and demands endless self flaggelation. This seems to have a curious appeal for the middle class white 'liberals' who adopt it.
Quite right, they don't seem to realise that life and people are shades of grey. Good people can do bad things and vice versa. The fragile reality being broken is why Rogan must be banned, How dare he humanise people like Douglas Murray. What if people watching see that DM doesn't actually have horns and isn't actually a facist. The whole ideology is based on fear, people lose fear the PTB lose control. Look at this Morning Joe video from a single episode this week, imagine watching stuff like that continually, it would lead to fear and then reactions like the second video. These people are being radicalised.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=nRONbU4D0hY
m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTKcUnomc-0

There are many things about what is happening that make no sense to me.

Much of what Trump says seems to be idiocy (and of course there is his connection to Epstein). He has however kept the US away from further military intervention, which is a huge step forward for America. That is an amazing thing for both working class Americans who have to risk their lives in all these wars, and for the foreign civilians who are killed.

Fascism has a very specific meaning. It doesn’t just mean bad and wrong and scary. I don’t see the point in labelling someone who isn’t even particularly keen on military expansionism as a fascist. There is a huge critique to be made of the American fight, but shouting fascist doesn’t really help.

The same with the right in the U.K. Are they merely posing as incompetent idiots to cover up a nefarious plan or are they just incompetent idiots?

How am I supposed to work that out when the left keeps failing to make plausible material demands.

I am also pretty annoyed that having paid Labour Party membership, the central party used that money to search social media profiles for ‘trots’ they could expel from the party. So they are using my money to spy on my social media presence and that of other people. And they sabotaged the election through behind the scenes machinations, rather than get behind their own leader, who already had a slim chance of election.

So is that the choice? Left wing purges or right wing imbeciles?

I have no idea what is going on, but at this point admitting to not knowing is a step ahead of people who are in an imaginary fight against imaginary fascism.

Belle

That second video is just deranged. As is the Joe Scarborough clip. Didn't he use to be a Republican? Before he drank the full MSNBC koolaid? As stripes says, it's absurd, if not offensive to describe politicos as fascists when they meet zero criteria. But to do it while patrolling the streets wearing black paramilitary gear and demanding civilians chant the right slogans and make the right hand gestures? That takes some stone cold historical illiteracy and zero self reflection.

it's absurd, if not offensive to describe politicos as fascists when they meet zero criteria. But to do it while patrolling the streets wearing black paramilitary gear and demanding civilians chant the right slogans and make the right hand gestures? That takes some stone cold historical illiteracy and zero self reflection.

Perfectly put.

Yup Joe was a Republican YouTube blurb from the video:
May 29, 2003 - Joe Scarborough was interviewed by legendary broadcaster Don Imus on his morning talk show "Imus in the Morning", which was simulcast on MSNBC. Scarborough was the Congressman from Florida’s 1st District from January 3 1995 - September 5, 2001, he resigned five months into his fourth term in September 2001.Two months before his resignation on July 20th, 2001, an intern was found dead in the congressman's Fort Walton Beach office.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=4123fntzZSc

a lot of GenY early career academics who didn't seem to have a solid general education behind them
Obviously reflects my personal interests/prejudices but I do really feel that the persistent downgrading of educational standards has given us a generation of young people who have every reason to believe they have been well educated (qualifications, degrees, postgraduate degrees) when they have not had any education at all. Not only do they not have a broad general knowledge and knowledge of arts and sciences, they don't have any academic skills. They can't write, they can't deal with complex information, they don't have any sense of their historical or political context. They are absolutely ignorant. It's not their fault. But it is surely the basis of many of our current problems.

Jesus god those videos are insane. I honestly think young people are so ill-equipped for life, they're just terrified of it. They have no protection because they don't know how to use their minds or think about things. They are brought up to feel they're incredibly special and wonderful and all challenges, even simple questions, cause them intense anxiety. Everything should be perfect all the time and if they feel sad, it's a mental health breakdown.

Earlier in the thread we were talking about being kids playing out in the street and taking out the neighbour's baby for fun - that way of life we had was sometimes a bit shit, but as a child, you learned so much from that independence. You learned to take care of yourself, that sometimes you saved your tears til you got home, that you had to earn respect, that you had responsibilities, that not everyone was your friend, that you could take risks and rely on yourself. I think the fact that young people haven't had those experiences is a big piece of the puzzle we are looking at now. They haven't had an education, they haven't learned resilience or independence, they haven't even had any fun! And yet they THINK they're educated and they BELIEVE they are their best selves and no one could possibly expect more from them.

I know it's not all young people, at all. In my experience, class/economic background plays a part. Some of the young people I work with have so many skills and so much potential, but they have zero confidence in themselves because they think being smart means being loud and performative and using stupid made-up language which they don't understand. They think they don't understand it because they're thick. They don't realise there's actually nothing to understand.

queenofknives have you read The Coddling of the American Mind? I’ve just finished listening to the audio version and it pretty much sums up what’s been discussed over the last few pages of this thread perfectly.

I saw an awful lot of these trends over my teaching career which went from 2004-2018. One of them - kids being less ‘emotionally and socially developed’ at a certain age I could see happening through ‘foldergate’.

When I first started teaching in 2004, pupils had rigidly marked exercise books up until age 14. After that, they were given a folder, some file paper and would expect to sort out their own notes. Homework was handed in on a sheet of paper, but the rest of the note taking was up to the student.

In 2008, the department decided students up to 16 should have exercise books and their notes checked by the teacher.

In 2014 the school decided that pupils should have their personal notes and folders checked and guidance given on their filing right up to the age of 18. Teachers just couldn’t take the risk that pupils would ‘fail’ due to their lack of organisation.

In my last year of teaching the head of sixth form wrote to all parents and suggested that students in years 12 and 13 should NOT get weekend jobs as it would interfere with their studies, cause stress and prevent them reaching their full academic potential. How can an individual teacher counter a management led trend like that?

It's worse than that now TheRealMcKenna because a) some of the teachers have been brought up the same way and really have no business being in a classroom; and b) the teachers who do still try to actually educate are extremely vulnerable to complaints, because education itself is too challenging for students. You ask a question to try to get a student to think about where they're going wrong, or you say, no, that's not the answer - and the next thing that happens is you're being hauled into a manager's office for yet another complaint.

I do try to educate to the best of my ability, which means challenging and pushing people out of their teeny tiny little comfort zones. I know that this will eventually be my downfall. But fuck it. I either go out because I'm fighting against this shit, or I give up and do some kind of fake, non-teaching to stay 'safe'. There isn't really a choice for me.

Oh, sorry, meant to add, I have not read the Haidt book yet but it's on my list. I hope it has some hope in it! I need it!

@queenofknives

It is almost as if people are being trained to think in a dysfunctional way that leaves them individually passive and weak and yet fixated on the dynamics of power.

That's exactly what people are being trained to do. Educated to do, even. Maybe we need to bring back the salon. Or maybe we should start book clubs to discuss books like The Madness of Crowds and Cynical Theories, and maybe classics of political writing and philosophy. Hmm.

Yes, Stripesgalor that really is the perfect description of what I have seen in the public school system here in Canada, and even in the university. There are little pockets where there is something else - I by complete accident found one when I went to university but it's under threat or maybe even past the point of no return now.

@queenofknives

a lot of GenY early career academics who didn't seem to have a solid general education behind them Obviously reflects my personal interests/prejudices but I do really feel that the persistent downgrading of educational standards has given us a generation of young people who have every reason to believe they have been well educated (qualifications, degrees, postgraduate degrees) when they have not had any education at all. Not only do they not have a broad general knowledge and knowledge of arts and sciences, they don't have any academic skills. They can't write, they can't deal with complex information, they don't have any sense of their historical or political context. They are absolutely ignorant. It's not their fault. But it is surely the basis of many of our current problems.

When I see this, I always start to think about my grandfather, who was a sailor in the Navy, and never went to university.

He was, however, an educated man. Not in the university mode, but a type of person that I haven't encountered for some time but which seems to have been common. He had practical skills, but he knew his history and political theory cold, he was well read (Kipling was his favourite author, and Burns, but he read everything,) he was a beautiful writer and a stickler fr grammar, and he wooed his wife by writing her not bad poetry. And he wouldn't let anyone get away with less than a watertight argument which made him annoying.

After he left the navy, he made a living as a journalist (the old fashioned hard nosed type, who almost never had a degree), mostly covering local politics but also as a literary reviewer.

I haven't met many young university graduates that were half as literate, and I don't really expect to. And I think there is something deeply wrong about that.

I will say that I am not trying to lay all the blame on universities. We all still have a responsibility to educate our kids, and many influences come from online.

While many people do study subjects which are primarily about political debate, many degrees really aren’t. Stereotypically I have a DD doing English and a DS who did Computer Science. DD avoids critical theory elements and DS’s degree was basically professional training.

Their political thinking is formed outside of their degrees. While there is some very worrying thinking (or not thinking) emerging from political courses and modules in universities, there are still decent degrees to be had.

‘He was, however, an educated man. Not in the university mode, but a type of person that I haven't encountered for some time but which seems to have been common. He had practical skills, but he knew his history and political theory cold, he was well read (Kipling was his favourite author, and Burns, but he read everything,) he was a beautiful writer and a stickler fr grammar, and he wooed his wife by writing her not bad poetry. And he wouldn't let anyone get away with less than a watertight argument which made him annoying.‘

I very much recognise this as a description of my working class grandparents. People had a deep interest in learning.

queenofknives It’s a very good read. It has some notes of positivity, but I think the signs of them being taken seriously are much more obvious in the UK than in the USA.

The book basically explores the fact that young people today are being allowed to believe in three great untruths:

1. Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you weaker (words are violence etc)
2. Trust your emotional response to a situation (impact is more important than intent)
3. Life is a struggle between good people and evil people

He explores how this runs counter to globally and historically accepted ‘wisdom’ and the notion that young people are anti-fragile and benefit from a certain level of challenge and managed risk which they are currently being denied. Instead, they are being taught the exact opposite of what would be explored in cognitive behaviour therapy; they should trust their immediate emotional response and react accordingly. This encourages reactions such as catastophising.

That video shared by Belle upthread is a perfect example of all three untruths.

@queenofknives

Oh, sorry, meant to add, I have not read the Haidt book yet but it's on my list. I hope it has some hope in it! I need it!

I'd also recommend The Closing f the American Mind on this topic, by Allan Bloom. It addresses a lot f the academic issues very directly. It's older so it's about a generation back, but that in itself gives some history around the problem.

There is also a great discussion with John McWhorter and Sam Harris. John McWhorter is writing a book about critical race theory. He describes the people who subscribe to this ideology as 'the elect.' That is how they view themselves. There is a Calvinist imperative here.

Placemarking so I can find all these excellent book and podcast recommendations later.

@queenofknives You’ve put everything I’ve been thinking about this so clearly and succinctly. I want a place on your critical thinking course!

It's worse than that now TheRealMcKenna because a) some of the teachers have been brought up the same way and really have no business being in a classroom; and b) the teachers who do still try to actually educate are extremely vulnerable to complaints

queen
I think this is a serious concern because it is a feedback loop. The people getting hired will entrench this. I don't see much solution but education is not a way out of this morass, it has created it in many ways. Unfortunately education seems to be about successfully imposing a narrow quasi religious ideology. And denouncing those who don't submit to this. This thread has been fascinating. McKenna mentioned The 'Coddling of the American mind.' I have not read it, but I saw an interview with Haidt on Joe Rogan and he covers many of the themes discussed here. He talked about playing out as a way to develop resilience in previous generations and that this has been replaced by the curious brittleness seen in 21st century students who are eager to report their professors for metaphors. This is a failure of the academy to promote debate and freedom of speech and prevent the dominance of an ideology which is an existential threat to both.

While there is some very worrying thinking (or not thinking) emerging from political courses and modules in universities, there are still decent degrees to be had.
You're right, Stripes, and I have a tendency to look at the worst examples rather than the best. However, the problem is that it's not just political course that are subject to these ideological takeovers, it's completely unrelated courses. Literature being a great example. You'd be hard pressed now to find an Eng. Lit. degree which isn't saturated with political ideology. I would think coding is a different matter, but as pp have mentioned, this ideology is also coming for STEM subjects. You're right, too, that the online environment is to blame, and parents/adults need to take responsibility too.

He was, however, an educated man. Not in the university mode, but a type of person that I haven't encountered for some time but which seems to have been common. He had practical skills, but he knew his history and political theory cold, he was well read (Kipling was his favourite author, and Burns, but he read everything,) he was a beautiful writer and a stickler fr grammar, and he wooed his wife by writing her not bad poetry. And he wouldn't let anyone get away with less than a watertight argument which made him annoying.
This is the kind of wonderful self-made person whom it is rare to encounter these days. My parents' and grandparents' generation were full of people like this. My uncle, for example, was a scholar of classical music, just as a hobby in his spare time, but came to be considered a foremost expert in his area of interest. I think the public library system and free education helped generate these individuals who loved learning and weren't tied to a particular system of privilege. They became free thinkers. We hardly see people like them anymore.

@queenofknives You’ve put everything I’ve been thinking about this so clearly and succinctly. I want a place on your critical thinking course!
Ah, that makes me happy to hear! I am actually seriously considering setting up some kind of free online 'school' to teach critical thinking skills and to read some of the great thinkers of the past and present. I'll let you know if I ever make it!

This is a failure of the academy to promote debate and freedom of speech and prevent the dominance of an ideology which is an existential threat to both.

Bovary you are right and I think the university as we know it is doomed for this reason. I don't agree that education can't solve some of these problems, but a very new (or old) approach is going to be needed. I am currently re-reading On Liberty by JS Mill, and it is shocking how completely relevant it is to what is happening NOW. I say re-reading it, because I read it first at college maybe 30 years ago. A lot of it went over my head then, but the main ideas stayed with me. I'm now wondering if it would have had a greater impact considering that we have once again found ourselves in a deeply illiberal political landscape. I also wonder how many people who went through school, college and university in the last 30 years have read this book. I think everyone should read it, and discuss Mill's shocking and controversial 'new' ideas.