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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just when I think the guardian can’t go lower

96 replies

Kit19 · 19/09/2020 11:59

It publishes a piece about what happens when your partner comes out as trans & wouldn’t you just know it, all of the partners turn out to be supportive & working through it and “my biggest cheerleader”

I have no problem with them publishing positive stories but would it have killed them to include a least one where the spouse/partner found it all utterly awful & the marriage didn’t last? Why are people being gaslighted into “you’re a hateful person if you can’t get past this”

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Kit19 · 19/09/2020 12:01

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/19/what-happens-when-your-partner-comes-out-as-trans

I think of all the trans widows on here and out there who have had their lives turned upside down & im so fucking angry they are repeatedly ignored & glossed over

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WeeBisom · 19/09/2020 12:16

“I didn’t fall in love with a gender, I fell in love with a person”. Not this shit again. Do they seriously think that the vast majority of humans are so shallow they don’t fall in love with people but instead love an abstract concept of “gender”? It’s such a straw man position, and it entirely erases sexual orientation. If you are a straight woman you will be attracted to people who are male. You will not have a sexual or romantic attraction to people who are female. If your male partner begins to make himself appear like a female (and not just a feminine man) that attraction will be gone. On the one hand trans activists want us to believe that males can really and truly change into females, but the second that causes any personal issues they switch tactics. If they really thought males could turn into females they would respect women’s sexuality. But no - instead they stress it’s still the same person inside, and you’re shallow if you are attracted to his maleness.

TinselAngel · 19/09/2020 12:21

Oh FFS

2Rebecca · 19/09/2020 12:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WeAreGerbil · 19/09/2020 12:22

It would be interesting to know how many women/people stay when their partner has transitioned at 1/3/6 months and 1/3/5 years. I'd imagine that there's a period of being in shock and trying to make the best of it before it becomes untenable.

Kit19 · 19/09/2020 12:28

WeeBissom that with bells on!! That trope riles me up so much. I always imagine it being said with a head tilt & an air of purity.

2Rebecca yes I agree. I’m baffled as to why TW seem surprised when their wife/female partner or lots of women don’t fancy them when presenting as feminine...but then so much of it baffles me!

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TinselAngel · 19/09/2020 12:36

Of course this article has a connection to the Beaumont Society (gaslighting wives since 1966), they always do.

merrymouse · 19/09/2020 12:44

5 stories but the only transman is in a relationship with a woman.

Hmmm.

SebastianTheCrab · 19/09/2020 12:51

@merrymouse

5 stories but the only transman is in a relationship with a woman.

Hmmm.

Classic
2Rebecca · 19/09/2020 12:59

I really have no idea where my post broke the guidelines. A clue would be helpful if posts are deleted

socialworker222 · 19/09/2020 13:01

So irritating that they as usual show no curiosity about partners who don't stay...

TinselAngel · 19/09/2020 13:02

@Kit19

WeeBissom that with bells on!! That trope riles me up so much. I always imagine it being said with a head tilt & an air of purity.

2Rebecca yes I agree. I’m baffled as to why TW seem surprised when their wife/female partner or lots of women don’t fancy them when presenting as feminine...but then so much of it baffles me!

Male entitlement + women as support human.
CivilCervix · 19/09/2020 13:07

People assume we’re a straight couple. We take full advantage of that. Before Allie transitioned, she was scared of public displays of affection. Now we hold hands everywhere we go.

Well this is very sad and also very informative

ArabellaScott · 19/09/2020 13:28

Can't be bothered clicking, so nothing to say on the article.

I just wanted to offer Brew to anyone affected by these issues. It must be very hard to be caught between the seismic change of your partner announcing they are a different gender and the current pressure to affirm and support, with no apparent thought for the feelings of the woman involved in the relationship.

I really hope that somebody, at some point, will start giving the women in these situations at least as much consideration as is shown the trans partners.

Kettlingur · 19/09/2020 13:47

“my biggest cheerleader”

After all, that is the natal female's job in a relationship. To stand by her (wo)man and to cheerlead, no matter what. Confused

TinselAngel · 19/09/2020 13:52

I really hope that somebody, at some point, will start giving the women in these situations at least as much consideration as is shown the trans partners.

Articles like that make me feel like I've made very little progress.

ArabellaScott · 19/09/2020 13:58

Tinsel, it must be galling. But remember it's one article in one paper that is making huge cutbacks due to a falling readership. You've helped so many, and helped educate many more. Take heart.

notyourhandmaid · 19/09/2020 14:02

"It seems not many men stick around when their partner comes out as trans."

Says so much.

TheShoesa · 19/09/2020 14:04

2Rebecca If you report your deleted post you can ask why and MNHQ will hopefully contact you with the reason. You can't avoid rule breaking if you don't know which rule you've broken!

SuitedandBootedbutNowheretoGo · 19/09/2020 14:04

I thought it was a lot more nuanced than unconditional cheerleading.
There is a cost which is made clear throughout - one couple are doomed to a sexless marriage, two aren't having sex at all. Both couples in their 60s/70s talk of companionship. Two of the transwidows were angry and hurt and talk of this. Out the five couples, the only one that seems happiest/least likely to think of it as a compromise is the bi woman/transman having a phalloplasty. The others all have their reasons for sticking with it but sex appears to be off the table in 4/5 cases. As one says: I believe you don’t choose your sexuality, and I’m not bisexual or gay.

I’m 54 now, so sex is less important to me

but we’ve not had sex since they transitioned
I felt no one gave any thought to how I was feeling
We’re both living with half of what we want

We were into our 60s, so why not just go for it?

There is very little support for the partners of trans people

We have the relationship I always wanted, without the sex

CaraDuneRedux · 19/09/2020 14:05

"Hearts not parts" and "I fell in love with the person" are such a crock of shit, albeit coming at the issue from opposite ends of the sheer stupidity spectrum.

Most of us are straight or gay (bisexual people are a minority) so of course "parts" matter, because sex is a physical activity undertaken with physical bodies.

At the same time, however, we are also products of our culture, and have certain expectations around the behaviour of our partners, so a man whom a woman had married in good faith, believing him to think of himself as a man, suddenly turning into a stereotyped parody of what he thinks a woman is, would have the effect of causing most straight women's fannies to clamp shut.

That's before we even get onto the levels of self-absorption needed to assume your wife has no independent desires of her own, but exists only as your "emotional support human", to reflect back at you the version of yourself you believe to be primary. Who wants to be with someone that self absorbed?

The comment about "passing as a straight couple" is so sad.

Allourboys · 19/09/2020 14:06

What confuses me about Shaaba and Jamie Raines is Shaaba’s relatively recent announcement that she is Bisexual. I just watched her ‘coming out’ video on YouTube yesterday. They are about to be married to Jamie and I think intend having a monogamous relationship but felt the need to make a video stating that they are now proudly labelling themselves as bisexual. They admit to quite fancying women and if they were ever on Love Island they would want it to be 60% male and 30% female. It’s such a pointless, thing to announce unless what you are really saying is that you regret not having had a proper relationship with a woman or still want one. Which is a bit sad. Or that if Jamie was run over by a bus she might try a relationship with a woman next (and not one that has transitioned into a trans man complete with a metoidioplasty)

Even if this is something you pondered every once in a while, why the need to say it out loud, on video, as if it was actually important to anyone else but yourself?

My first thought on hearing this announcement was that if you believe yourself to be bisexual then of course you are going to be more likely to be attracted to someone who you knew as a girl/woman before they transitioned into a transman. But of course this has nothing to do with it.

It smacks to me of her wanting to have ‘Queer” credentials because being a ‘straight’ woman in a relationship with a trans man is too ‘heteronormative’ and she might end up getting treated badly by the Queer/Trans community like Amanda Jette Knox, who has a trans husband and a trans daughter (or are they non-binary now?) but is just a boring old woman who now thinks of themselves as a lesbian. It’s another flag she can now wave along with her trans ally flag at Pride.

Shaaba and Jamie are the very media friendly couple who made a video to explain to the world how wrong JKR’s statement was and how transphobic it was and how she should educate herself.Even Margaret Atwood was seduced by the sheer, ‘testily-exasperated-but-maintaining-our-niceness’ of this couple after watching their video. I think they both seem lovely people but they just don’t seem to engage at all with the deeper implications, arguments and impacts of their pronouncements. They just think anyone with any objections is not a nice person or are a bit stupid because ‘look at us - we’re lovely’ a la Jake Graf & Hannah Winterbourne. Real fingers-in-the-ear merchants.

I think it is lovely that people can still maintain their loving relationships through adversity. Many seem to accept that sex no longer plays a part. Some seem resigned and have perhaps had a life of playing second-fiddle in a relationship and this is just another chapter in that book. Some seem to accept the role of ‘protector’ and it becomes more like a mother/child dynamic (which I feel particular sympathy for because not many of the men who are late life transitioners seem to embrace the stereotypical domestic duties of ‘womanlyness’ just the clothes and make-up so the wife is still left cleaning up after them)

I am not surprised that The Guardian didn’t go out of their way to find less rosy stories. But I think there was an air of sadness in some of those stories that wouldn’t have passed many people by. Many people seem to accept change because they don’t think they could ever find love again and some want a quiet life with someone familiar even if they no longer entirely resemble the person they embarked on a relationship with. I hope they are all as happy as they say they are.

Allourboys · 19/09/2020 14:11

And sympathies to the women on MN who are going through this in real life and who must feel their stories are not being told because they don’t fit the ‘acceptable’ narrative.

Kit19 · 19/09/2020 14:17

That’s exactly it Allourboys - no problem with publishing stories of ppl who made it work but to not publish a single one where it really didn’t work out & they’re not friends or ‘cheerleaders’ when we know that there are many women in that situation is deliberate af. The guardian have a clear agenda - there’s no balance here

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