Im concerned my DS (24) has gotten into Red Pill/MGTOW stuff

[CastleOfCary]

Hello, I’m not really sure if this is the right forum to post this in , but out of all the ones on mumsnet, it seems the most relevant.

So my son has a good social life, and since obtaining a bachelors degree took on a role with the Royal Marines, which he is really enjoying as a career. He’s also very into art (drawing, painting etc) which I must admit, he is very skilled at.

Last week he came home for a visit (first time he was on action since the whole lockdown lark was going on), and whilst conversing with him, I dropped into the conversation asking if he was seeing anyone. The response concerned me.

He started talking about how “marriage was a dead institution, and I am not jumping onto that dying trend.” Trying to keep an open mind I then asked why, to which he quoted a bunch of different divorce stats, and talked about other things like child support, biased divorce settlements in court and how he believes it’s outrageous this stuff happens etc.

He’s not particularly the “incel” type you might envision when it comes to this type of stuff, he’s a tall, handsome fella with blond hair and blue eyes, is in great shape and his life is fairly well together too.

However, I think part of this may be him coming from a place of hurt, and that could be how he got sucked into this philosophy the MGTOW type people have surrounding relationships, marriages etc. He had a girlfriend of three years who happened to have two affairs whilst in the relationship he didn’t find out about. She also happened to be very abusive too, and all of this is how I think he may have got sucked into this stuff.

Ever since this he’s refused to get involved in dating/relationships since. When he came back to visit last week, an old friend of his, a pretty blonde girl asked him out on a coffee date to which he declined “no thanks”. He seems hell bent on staying out of relationships and even just going out on dates forever at this point. How can I approach this situation, and perhaps try to get him out of this toxic mindset he might be in? Thanks

Leave him to it. He still sounds angry.

I think this may well be a 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink' situation.

At best, all you can do probably is point out to him that if he's determined not to marry and raise a family, that's his choice. But you'd be very disappointed should he impregnate women and then abandon his offspring, so perhaps he should do the responsible thing and consider a vasectomy.

A male friend was like this all through his 20’s, swearing he would never get married and disparaging it in every way possible! He’s been happily married since his late 40s. I guess your son has been badly hurt. Just love him and give him time. Xxx

Why are you so keen to change him?

There are serious problems with marriage as an institution, both for women and men, and plenty of people stay single and are happy as such.

The whole pressure to couple up thing sounds quaintly old fashioned to me. There are many different way for people to live and be happy.

I suppose he might also be gay or otherwise not attracted to women, and struggling to come to terms with it.

What is 'toxic' about a desire to remain single, avoid dating, or express scepticism about traditional marriage?

Are you sure it's not just that you're concerned he's not going to conform to the future that you had mapped out for him inside your own mind?

I think you're right to worry that he's gotten into MGTOW stuff.

@Summerhillsquare

I suppose he might also be gay or otherwise not attracted to women, and struggling to come to terms with it.

Man doesn't pursue every single sexual opportunity presented. Might be gay... come on....

On the information shared it is more likely he's had some bad experiences with relationships and is taking a break from them, and I can imagine he is around blokes who share divorce stories with their own spin on them and he has taken some of that on board.

Not sure I have anything useful to say, as I have never had to deal with.

But just wondered whether the Marines is a very male environment? And maybe in working through his hurt he is getting re-inforcement of a particular view point that seems a bit incel.

I dont think you should push the dating or even just having a friendly coffee with someone. But while he is at home is there anyone, family, old friends who could maybe counter the ideas that man are victimised by a system that favours women.

Was just about to say how about having them round, but realised they 6 limit makes that a bit difficult.

Something outdoors(?!), to be with other people and try and take the focus away from the private hurt linking into MGTOW?

He sounds like he's angry and hurt.

Thus he's found refuge in "like minded" men on social media.

Unfortunately he's not at an age where you can confiscate his devices or change the WiFi password.

It's not what you want to hear but I'm not sure there's much you can do.

What I think you can do as a mother is not just listen but challenge any misogynistic shit and remind him of the females around him that deserve his love and respect and point out that when he spouts any incel/MGTOW rubbish he's talking about them - real women.

(misses point of thread?)

OP... I'm afraid a pattern caught my eye...
Why is it that when you refer to your son's attractiveness, and the attractiveness of the potential date he declined, "blondeness" pops up each time? (and blue eyes too, in the case of your son)
Are blond hair and blue eyes particularly valued in your household?

Before unpicking the toxic ideology your son may have embraced, do make sure you check your own (unconscious?) biases. Sometimes prejudices of various types feed each other.

@CastleOfCary

Hello, I’m not really sure if this is the right forum to post this in , but out of all the ones on mumsnet, it seems the most relevant.

So my son has a good social life, and since obtaining a bachelors degree took on a role with the Royal Marines, which he is really enjoying as a career. He’s also very into art (drawing, painting etc) which I must admit, he is very skilled at.

Last week he came home for a visit (first time he was on action since the whole lockdown lark was going on), and whilst conversing with him, I dropped into the conversation asking if he was seeing anyone. The response concerned me.

He started talking about how “marriage was a dead institution, and I am not jumping onto that dying trend.” Trying to keep an open mind I then asked why, to which he quoted a bunch of different divorce stats, and talked about other things like child support, biased divorce settlements in court and how he believes it’s outrageous this stuff happens etc.

He’s not particularly the “incel” type you might envision when it comes to this type of stuff, he’s a tall, handsome fella with blond hair and blue eyes, is in great shape and his life is fairly well together too.

However, I think part of this may be him coming from a place of hurt, and that could be how he got sucked into this philosophy the MGTOW type people have surrounding relationships, marriages etc. He had a girlfriend of three years who happened to have two affairs whilst in the relationship he didn’t find out about. She also happened to be very abusive too, and all of this is how I think he may have got sucked into this stuff.

Ever since this he’s refused to get involved in dating/relationships since. When he came back to visit last week, an old friend of his, a pretty blonde girl asked him out on a coffee date to which he declined “no thanks”. He seems hell bent on staying out of relationships and even just going out on dates forever at this point. How can I approach this situation, and perhaps try to get him out of this toxic mindset he might be in? Thanks

So presumably the one serious relationship he's had ended with his partner acting particularly badly.

He's looked into the fallout of a failed marriage (quite sensible) and he's seriously considering whether it's the right thing for him.

Sorry what's the issue?

He's in the military, there's a sky high divorce rate and as many people live away from their partners he probably hears about them finding it hard. What's the problem? If you had a daughter would you be upset if someone asked her on a date and she said no?

Also there's a lot of difference between not wanting to date etc and being anti feminist etc, I'd be mindful what you label him as.

This sounds like it is more about the life that you want him to live. Leave him alone.

Surely the issue isn’t whether or not he wishes to remain single - either is fine, but the reasons why he has drawn that conclusion. He is hurt and damaged and that needs dealing with whether or not he then goes on to have relationships. If he does want relationships just not that sort of relationship (ie a loving committed one) then he needs to make sure that his partners know. In other words, he needs to be a decent human being. As for his attitudes about marriage, it would be interesting to know if he understands why the statistics are as they are, and what the statistics are like if you break up outside of a marriage and what it is like for children. He might simply be too upset to have a nuanced understanding of the positives and negatives of marriage and not marriage. I agree with the poster about just getting him exposed to other things as much as you can (ie lovely walks, nice people), challenging misogyny and Building him up by giving alternative viewpoints and interpretations of he is receptive to conversation.

As for this idea that coupling up is somehow negative, well that is one of the most depressing things I have read in a while. How did we get to a place where the idea of forming bonds with someone, being loving, trusting and committed are somehow seen as old fashioned?

@WhereYouLeftIt well I’d like to think he does use a condom if that’s not what he wants happening.

@Summerhillsquare it’s not his first relationship with a girl so I doubt he’s gay.

@stumbledin I don’t really want to argue that, as coming from a woman myself, I think he’s right. However I don’t think the answer is to become bitter about it hence why I am concerned for him.

@Kaiserin “unconscious biases”? You sound crazy as hell.

We all go through phases of swearing off relationships don't we?

I know that a couple of times in my 20s I swore off men for a bit, following relationship breakdowns etc.

You feel it's more than that though OP?

@PaleBlueMoonlight exactly. It is perfectly fine to remain single - it is only the reasons why he is choosing to do so that leave me with some concern.

I don't think Kaiserin sounds crazy at all.

OP - would everyone in your family be ok with your son being gay? (if he turned out to be..)

Don’t worry OP I spent most of my 20s swearing off dates and men eventually met a lovely bloke who I couldn’t help but like and wanted to spend time with and eventually we got married.

And .Kaiserin get a grip of yourself. The OP could just have easily said her son had beautiful brown eyes and brown hair, but he doesn’t he happens to have blue eyes and blonde hair. We all think our offspring are more attractive than anyone else it is not racism it is being a parent.

[quote CastleOfCary]@stumbledin I don’t really want to argue that, as coming from a woman myself, I think he’s right. However I don’t think the answer is to become bitter about it hence why I am concerned for him.[/quote]
Hang on - you yourself think that men are victimised by a system that favours women?!

And you wonder why he now thinks like that?

Bloody hell.