Male-attracted lesbian better than being bi?

[anotherhumanfemale]

I've been trying to figure out why there are lesbians who are attracted to trans women. I have come across quite a lot of dislike from certain corners of the lesbian community to women who are bi ("disgusting", "contaminated", "dirty" are some words I've seen and I have a female bi friend who has been told this to her face by a woman who had been previously chatting her up thinking she was a lesbian).

I'm now wondering whether being a lesbian who is attracted to a trans woman, if admitting this person is male would be too much a challenge to your own identity. If you believe being bi is akin to the words above, then you surely couldn't admit to yourself or others that you were not lesbian.

I'm not suggesting all lesbians think that way about bi women - NALALT ;) - but do wonder if this plays a part. Far better to be a deluded lesbian than a contaminated, dirty one that women don't want to date?

Wondering if anybody has thoughts or more clarity on this. I'm not intending to be offensive, in case someone takes offence at some of this. I'm also bi and in some online lesbian groups (silently) so I could be way off, but after a while of seeing these things written and defended if/when challenged, it's made me wonder.

Are they lesbians or just 'special' hetrosexual women?

There are lesbians here on Mumsnet.

I've never heard any of them use words like that (to describe bisexual people).

@Apollo440

Are they lesbians or just 'special' hetrosexual women?

Well I think there are the "special" heterosexual women, but that doesn't explain the lesbians who march in Pride and want Get the L Out banned, for example. Early on in my GC days I spoke to a female friend about safeguarding in women's spaces mistakenly assuming that as she is a married lesbian with three daughters, she'd automatically "get it". She definitely didn't and is tactfully not outright calling me a bigot.

@JaneAustenWouldHateThis

There are lesbians here on Mumsnet.

I've never heard any of them use words like that (to describe bisexual people).

Of course there are. That's partly why I'm asking here too because I honestly don't dare raise this with the people who refer to women like me as contaminated. Perhaps the women who don't post things like that know what I'm talking about and know more about how prevalent or influential that line of thinking is, or isn't?

But I'm not sure if you're meaning that because you've not seen such things on Mumsnet from a poster who says she's lesbian that it can't be true?

I'm surprised to hear this (is what I'm saying).

Ive heard it before

None of the posters have said it about anyone else (cos its a nasty thing to say, who would admit to that) but ive seen people on mumsnet who say its happened to them and i have heard a gay person of my acquaintance talk about it as well

So it must happen...no idea why though

Well really, I think it comes down to the fact that women are relegated to the bottom of the pile and if you’re a lesbian then...you are at the very bottom of the bottom pile because you don’t centre men.
But if you are inclusive and sleep with trans women then you’ll get approval and be less likely to be threatened and harassed and ultimately excluded from your community.

So, they may be regarded as ‘special’. I’d call it coercion.

Why do you care? Are you a lesbian who is attracted to transwomen? Or just the self identified lesbian police?

I've wondered about this too. There does seem to be a sort of weird hangup about being bisexual. Some people seem very determined to avoid being labelled as bisexual at any cost and I'm not sure why this is the case. I've seen video clips or read threads online of straight men insisting they are still heterosexual and not bisexual even if they are having sex with trans women. I've seen gay men insist they are gay even if they might be willing to have sex with a trans man. And also lesbians who have a trans woman for a partner but insist they are lesbian and not bisexual.

Like, what's so bad about being bisexual? Is it really that shameful to admit that you find both males and females sexually attractive? I'm just baffled at the insistence that they must be anything but bi. They couldn't possibly be bi. Like there's something inherently awful about bisexuality that people would rather find all sorts of convoluted reasons to justify their sexuality rather than admit that they are attracted to both women and men. I really don't understand it.

I was a bit naive when I first realised I was bisexual, but I have since bumped into some lesbians that didn't seem to particularly like bisexual women, or at least they are ok with you as long as you aren't openly bisexual. I'm not very well-versed in the dynamics between L, G and B.
I think I prefer to date other bisexual women these days - I find we have more common ground and it's less awkward.

Like, what's so bad about being bisexual? Is it really that shameful to admit that you find both males and females sexually attractive?

When it comes to trans women and trans men it is more important to validate their experience as straight men and women than to taint it by referring to yourself as bisexual.

I think the rest is insecurity. If you sleep with and find both male and females attractive then it renders your partner worried that they are not enough for you. This is then projected onto you to ‘choose’ a team.

I think you are misunderstanding what is going on here. Bi (and straight) woman aren’t pretending that they are only attracted to other women – they are “expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a lesbian” – it is all part of the queering of language.

Lesbian was redefined to mean any woman (or non-binary/non-man person) attracted to any extent to any other non-man person. So, in simple terms, any woman who has any degree of attraction to women (even if they are in a relationship with a man and predominantly attracted to men) is on “the lesbian spectrum”. Many will describe themselves as “bi lesbians” but will use that interchangeably with just "lesbian". Then lesbian was redefined further to become an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (ie no intrinsic meaning) – so you don’t need to identify as a woman or feel attracted to women at all to be a lesbian. However, a lot of these new “lesbians” are hostile towards (homosexual, actual) lesbians as they view not being attracted to male bodies as transphobic and anti-male.

I think a lot of feminists over-focus on the trans issue when discussing what is happening to lesbians when there is a lot more at play. I’ve not got a lot of time to go into it now as there is so much to it but it started about 15 years ago with everything being re-branded as for ‘queer women’ rather than 'lesbians and bi women', and “queer women” who were attracted to men coming to the forefront. Key messages were that sexuality is fluid, “hearts not parts” and “I fall in love with the person, not the gender” signifying that bi women were more progressive than the “vagina fetishists” (although that language hadn’t come in yet – it started with the moral superiority of women who were attracted to men and the overtly negative stuff about homosexual women only really started coming in once they had changed the meaning of the word lesbian so it was more difficult to challenge because there were “good” lesbians who were attracted to males.)

I also wonder if you are encountering political lesbians (straight and bi women – but predominantly bi women – who give up men and identify as lesbians for feminist reasons). I think political lesbians are a bit like over-zealous ex-smokers who go on about how disgusting smoking is and the smell of it etc. But they aren’t actually lesbians.

@Hiremee

Why do you care? Are you a lesbian who is attracted to transwomen? Or just the self identified lesbian police?

Thanks for your input. I think you'll find your questions answered in the first post.

As a bisexual woman, I think you may have a point. But let's not pretend actual lesbians have any actual power in the LGBT movement these days.

I feel 'male lesbians' and TRAs hate female bisexuals for an entirely different reason: it reminds them there are two (and only two) sexes. And that women can exercise their free will decide which sex to hook up with at any given point in time.

Seriously, the older I get, the more confused about it all I am, and the less gender matters. I find I am attracted to the whole person (I think) regardless of gender. I identify mostly as straight, but I can imagine myself in romantic or sexual relationships with either gender. I wonder if my self-identification is because I CBA changing.

political lesbians (straight and bi women – but predominantly bi women – who give up men and identify as lesbians for feminist reasons)

Would political lesbians being lesbians for feminist reasons only (do they exist in any significant number?) really be the ones wanting to broaden lesbianism to incorporate, I assume non-SRA, trans women? Or am I thinking too 1970s radical feminist lesbian separatist here? And you are thinking of younger women who come to it via the inclusive feminist route?

I think the rest is insecurity. If you sleep with and find both male and females attractive then it renders your partner worried that they are not enough for you. This is then projected onto you to ‘choose’ a team.

I sort of understand that, but also find it confusing. Lots of heterosexual and homosexual people dump their partners because they found someone else more attractive or whatever. Worrying about not being 'enough' for a partner is a fairly common issue irrespective of sexuality. Or is the feeling that bisexuality adds more 'complexity' to these feelings of inadequacy?

Many will describe themselves as “bi lesbians” but will use that interchangeably with just "lesbian".

I've never heard of the term "bi lesbians" before. What a bizarre oxymoron.

I agree there's been a lot of rebranding and propaganda in changing everything to 'queer women' instead of the usual framing of lesbian or bisexual women.
And the whole 'hearts not parts' that seems to have permeated bisexuality in this morally superior attitude.

Rebranding pretty much nails it; it's political. Female type women calling themselves lesbians these days in a woke situation will be scolded as this implies not being inclusive with their body of male people, while male type women calling themselves lesbians are celebrated. In woke speech, a lesbian is a male type woman.

On the other hand, outside of that political and carefully corporate marketing for a specific agenda world, it's rather like saying you're a meat-inclusive vegan.

Worrying about not being 'enough' for a partner is a fairly common issue irrespective of sexuality. Or is the feeling that bisexuality adds more 'complexity' to these feelings of inadequacy?

I suppose some could be of the opinion that bisexuals are not only playing for a team but covering the whole league - creating more concern for potential partners about ability to commit or be satisfied.

I have to say though I don’t agree with this perspective.
I believe that many people like to give women a hard time about many things and unfortunately I believe that lesbian women suffer significantly because of their sexuality and preference for women partners.

@justilou1

Seriously, the older I get, the more confused about it all I am, and the less gender matters. I find I am attracted to the whole person (I think) regardless of gender. I identify mostly as straight, but I can imagine myself in romantic or sexual relationships with either gender. I wonder if my self-identification is because I CBA changing.

I suspect it may depend on the individual's idea of themselves.

I'd say I wouldn't date a transman. But I'd happily date Grayson Perry (his wife might object though!!) and actually if it was a transman who said "I'm biologically female but prefer to live as if male" that might work too.

But if it was someone who actually believed themselves to be male how could it work? You'd be in a relationship where you were effectively lying to them. It could only end in unhappiness.

I bloody love Michelle.

I'm bi though I identified as a lesbian for my 20s, and I've experienced that from lesbians, it can be hurtful, but I understand where they are coming from. Some lesbians want nothing to do with men at all for different reasons, and having a partner who has been / will have sex with men just feels too intimate and close. We know what (some) men are like around lesbian sex, I had one male partner who kept pestering me to tell him about my sex with women so he could get off on it. I never did, but for lesbians the possibility that this may happen is always there. HIV was a big thing when I was younger too, with the risk less for lesbians, same for other STDs. Finally there's the worry that because it's much easier to have heterosexual relationships that bi women may have less buy-in to being lesbian, plus many lesbian have experienced "bisexual" women experimenting, coming onto them quite strongly then backing away just as quickly.

So 21 posts and no one has mentioned porn yet? Isn’t there a category of porn, aimed at straight men, called “lesbian” porn? Is that Influencing the culture of what people think words mean?

I’m a lesbian and I would not sleep with a transwoman that was still in possession of male genitalia. No judgement against those that would but I would consider them to be bi which is okay.

Biphobia isn’t as bad as it used to be in the lesbian community but there are some lesbians who wouldn’t date a bi female, never heard the comments you describe however.

There's a lot of complicated internal politics and psychology at play with the bisexual/lesbian thing really. Bisexual women do get a raw deal with some assumptions about promiscuity, and threesomes and all that. Also there's an element of distrust as claiming to be bisexual can happen on the way to either coming out as lesbian or going completely the other way, and no one likes to feel they were someone's experiment. Conversely, having been in relationships with men doesn't cancel out bisexuality and there is all that odd stuff about being a 'gold star' where a lesbian hasn't ever been with a man and it's a badge of honour, which contributes to a weird hierarchy thing.

I think it's related to the kerfuffles about butch/femme presentation, and how, even in communities of predominantly women, the culture of blaming women is so ingrained that we can't seem to help ourselves.

Compulsory heterosexuality is a complete mindfuck, and those of us who are oriented towards other women face a lifetime of conflicting messages and conditioning that scorns the idea of being oriented to only women. The pushback against this seems harsh, but I suspect it's a lot to do with feeling extremely defensive in a world that just can't seem to accept that a woman never, ever has to centre a penis, not ever.