Male-attracted lesbian better than being bi?

[anotherhumanfemale]

I've been trying to figure out why there are lesbians who are attracted to trans women. I have come across quite a lot of dislike from certain corners of the lesbian community to women who are bi ("disgusting", "contaminated", "dirty" are some words I've seen and I have a female bi friend who has been told this to her face by a woman who had been previously chatting her up thinking she was a lesbian).

I'm now wondering whether being a lesbian who is attracted to a trans woman, if admitting this person is male would be too much a challenge to your own identity. If you believe being bi is akin to the words above, then you surely couldn't admit to yourself or others that you were not lesbian.

I'm not suggesting all lesbians think that way about bi women - NALALT ;) - but do wonder if this plays a part. Far better to be a deluded lesbian than a contaminated, dirty one that women don't want to date?

Wondering if anybody has thoughts or more clarity on this. I'm not intending to be offensive, in case someone takes offence at some of this. I'm also bi and in some online lesbian groups (silently) so I could be way off, but after a while of seeing these things written and defended if/when challenged, it's made me wonder.

And btw, I'm not a political lesbian, I'm the other kind, and I'm fully aware of the shit experience of growing up that way and all the negatives. But I'm not going to pull rank, or demand that every other lesbian has the same journey. Because your complaint of an internal hierarchy with innate lesbians at the bottom is precisely what I am saying should not happen.

I'm nodding along to every point, NonMum. You've explained pretty clearly exactly why I'm not comfortable self-describing as lesbian.

You've also very clearly demonstrated why we need a word that encompasses all same-sex attracted, opposite-sex excluding women regardless of how we got there.

Well, it's an understandable response, but I'm not really sure how it works as solution.

You invent a word for women solely attracted to women, but not necessarily born that way. Lesbians like me, who are oriented from adolescence on might be included in that umbrella term, but actually, I've been heterosexually married for 2 decades in a misguided attempt to be cured/shun my sinful impulses etc. and have come to embrace my orientation late on, so I'm already down a peg on the gold star lesbians.
And then a number of people think that male people can also be lesbians, so what you end up with is a new word for women attracted to women, however they got there, and lesbian meaning a male or a female attracted to women.

I feel shat on with that particular solution myself too, as well meaning as it is.

Feeling entitled to identify into someone else's reality because it suits and serves you without regard for or understanding of the group you are identifying into and how that affects them is proof in itself of a disregard for that group - seeing them as a thing to serve your interests.

Well put. This ^^

@TabbyStar

Oh, I absolutely understand that now I am older and probably not that much wiser. From my perspective nobody has to date anybody they don't want to for any reason. Nobody has to justify that. And most people who do have a reason, it's born out of negative experiences. I just think that it can leave bisexual women in a kind of no mans land (sorry not meant to be a pun) where it's easier to go back in the closet than to pursue a relationship with another woman beyond sex/experimentation.

I have been dumped by a lesbian for being too straight and abused by a man for having had sex with women (and accused of sleeping with every man or woman I came into contact with!) so it can feel like not really belonging anywhere. I am more afraid of being out and bisexual now because of the climate regarding the trans community. Bisexual does not mean will sleep with anyone now matter how they present. It doesn't mean I'll sleep with all men and all women either. Consent is my biggest sexual preference these days. That means I should be able to say I don't sleep with trans-men or trans-women without being called a TERF but that is certainly not what's happening online. IRL I have very little experience of the issue, but have as being discriminated against for being bisexual by both men and women. But you're right, I get to live in a heteronormative way most of the time (especially as I'm single and a matter, so people don't even think beyond that). It has made me afraid of pursuing that half of myself again though, but I probably need to be braver. But I feel like things are going backwards for some LGB people, not forwards.

Sorry Floral, I'm just trying to find a way of being mindful of NonMum's valid points while trying to work out what label I'm supposed to use for myself that won't piss anyone off. Which is impossible, isn't it?

I'd like to reserve 'lesbian' for actual females who are only sexually interested in other actual females. You'd still qualify and transwomen still wouldn't. If that didn't come across then I'm obviously explaining myself badly. Apologies.

Thanks Zara, seems we've had similar experiences, it's helpful to read something that helps me feel it's not just me, even though I'm sorry you've experienced it too.

@FloralBunting

Well, it's an understandable response, but I'm not really sure how it works as solution.

You invent a word for women solely attracted to women, but not necessarily born that way. Lesbians like me, who are oriented from adolescence on might be included in that umbrella term, but actually, I've been heterosexually married for 2 decades in a misguided attempt to be cured/shun my sinful impulses etc. and have come to embrace my orientation late on, so I'm already down a peg on the gold star lesbians.
And then a number of people think that male people can also be lesbians, so what you end up with is a new word for women attracted to women, however they got there, and lesbian meaning a male or a female attracted to women.

I feel shat on with that particular solution myself too, as well meaning as it is.

I've always in the past assumed all of these kinds of comments about "gold star lesbians" were made in bad faith and not bothered to reply but now I've come across actual, homosexual lesbians who've spent so long in lesbian feminist/political lesbian circles and have been told such bullshit by bisexual political lesbians about lesbians to isolate them from other lesbians and try to justify their appropriation of our language that I think it is worth saying.

A lesbian is any woman who has only ever felt attracted to other women - regardless of sexual experience. If she felt forced due to lesbophobia to try sex with a man, even marry a man, she is no less of a lesbian. Forcing yourself - or being forced to - have sex with a man due to lesbophobia is a lesbian experience. A woman who had a relationship with a man because she was romantically or sexually attracted to him is not a lesbian.

"Gold star lesbian" is a term I'd never heard of for about the first 20 years I was out and now it is everywhere - mainly used by other groups (trans and queer groups and also political lesbians). As far as I am aware it was a term invented by bisexual women to mock lesbians who hadn't slept with men and now it's main use seems to be:

1. For other groups to use as a diversionary tactic when being challenged for identifying as lesbians - trying to divert attention from it being their attraction to men (or being male) that makes them not a lesbian to experience of sex with a man (I've also seen some trying to bring rape victims into it which is beyond disgusting - and that has been from the supposedly feminist side)

2. As a tactic to try to divide lesbians

3. As a label that bestows (some) lesbians as privileged oppressors - allowing other groups (however they identify) to make lesbophobic comments and harass lesbians while coming across as "punching up" (there are some similarities with the use of the terms cis and terf)

All I wanted was a word that indicates "Still working through this compulsory heterosexual performance shit; not figured it out to my complete satisfaction but can safely say the 'trying to make dick work for me' experiment is over." Actually trying very hard not to step in anyone's toes here.

Upthread you say women who always knew they were lesbians have different experiences to women who took a while to figure it out - are we actually allowed labels to differentiate between these two subsets of same-sex attracted females? Because if we're not, then how the hell are we supposed to talk about the differences and commonalities?

I've only ever heard 'gold star' recently and as a means to slur and deride women who have never chosen sexual experiences with men. Most often in the context of lesbian women who refuse to consider sexual relations even in theory with a self identified male, with the aim of painting this as a stupid and superior pov that nice people wouldn't hold.

One of the issues in growing up in a world that is heteronormative - and it is, due to sheer population numbers, but when I was growing up there were no images anywhere at all of what a non heterosexual woman did or looked like or that one even existed - is that some lesbian women did what society and the world expected them to do, and told them that was their only option to do, sometimes for years in marriages they were deeply unhappy in, before coming to realise their homosexuality. It happened to plenty of men too. I don't think that makes them bisexual.

I don't think that makes them bisexual.

Agreed.

So why, then, is a lesbian who's suffering from compulsory girldick redesignated as bisexual?

Well well well, more lesbophobia on Mumsnet. Just to be clear

A lesbian is a female who is exclusively attracted to other females.

A lesbian can choose to sleep with or not sleep with anybody she wants, as long as the women she chooses to sleep with are consenting.

Lesbians are not responsible for bisexual women not wanting to call themselves bisexual.

Bisexual women who sleep with males and who call themselves lesbians are the ones who have the problem. Lesbian is not their word, they are not lesbians and they should stop appropriating lesbianism to allieviate whatever insecurities they may have.

Anybody who has a y chromosome is not and cannot be a lesbian. Anybody who suggests otherwise is a homophobe and a misogynist.

A lesbian is a female who is exclusively attracted to other females.

Yep, so women who are sexually attracted to a transwoman are by definition not lesbians.

I'm not convinced the women the OP is asking about are actually sexually attracted to them though. Seems a pretty big assumption to me, given that we know there are a whole host of reasons women (of all sexualities) might engage in sex with people they're not sexually attracted to.

A lesbian is any woman who has only ever felt attracted to other women - regardless of sexual experience. If she felt forced due to lesbophobia to try sex with a man, even marry a man, she is no less of a lesbian. Forcing yourself - or being forced to - have sex with a man due to lesbophobia is a lesbian experience. A woman who had a relationship with a man because she was romantically or sexually attracted to him is not a lesbian

Should those of us who call ourselves lesbians expect a visit from the lesbian Taliban and their purity meter? And presumably a branding iron with the letter B for anyone woman who doesn't pass muster.

Seriously, at a time when the concept of 'woman' is under attack the last thing we need is to sow even more discord in the lesbian community. Michelle is right.

I hadn't realised they'd repurposed 'gold star' - I've been familiar with the term for years and when I learnt it it wasn't (to my knowledge) being used to deride lesbians for never having been personally involved with manparts. It was just a useful shorthand for distinguishing between actual female lesbians with different experiences.

The shift in usage is thoroughly depressing, though logical in hindsight.

If men are getting away with identifying as lesbians, then they can't keep using "lesbian" as a dirty word for women-who-say-no-to-dick. They've redefined it to be dick-inclusive and made "gold-star-lesbian" the focus of hatred instead.

Same old same old, I know, but depressing to see in action. It doesn't matter what word we use for "woman who says no to dick" or "woman who has never been successfully coerced to submit to dick". Whatever word we choose, they'll use it as a weapon against us.

This reminds me of the unfortunately late Magdelen Berns. Leave lesbians alone