Male-attracted lesbian better than being bi?

[anotherhumanfemale]

I've been trying to figure out why there are lesbians who are attracted to trans women. I have come across quite a lot of dislike from certain corners of the lesbian community to women who are bi ("disgusting", "contaminated", "dirty" are some words I've seen and I have a female bi friend who has been told this to her face by a woman who had been previously chatting her up thinking she was a lesbian).

I'm now wondering whether being a lesbian who is attracted to a trans woman, if admitting this person is male would be too much a challenge to your own identity. If you believe being bi is akin to the words above, then you surely couldn't admit to yourself or others that you were not lesbian.

I'm not suggesting all lesbians think that way about bi women - NALALT ;) - but do wonder if this plays a part. Far better to be a deluded lesbian than a contaminated, dirty one that women don't want to date?

Wondering if anybody has thoughts or more clarity on this. I'm not intending to be offensive, in case someone takes offence at some of this. I'm also bi and in some online lesbian groups (silently) so I could be way off, but after a while of seeing these things written and defended if/when challenged, it's made me wonder.

I'm following all of this. Thank you for replying - some really thought-provoking points. It's a discussion I haven't seen all in one place before so I'm following with interest.

Re women who self describe as lesbians while dating transwomen - I wonder if this is partially explained by them not being actively repulsed by male bodies.

From observation I'd say sexual orientation could be subdivided based on whether a person's actively repelled by the bodies their orientation excludes, or just 'meh' about them. If a woman's in the latter category then it's just another example of women being expected to get into sexual relationships with people we're not actively sexually attracted to. And when I say 'expected' I mean the whole female socialisation wossname grooming us into putting our own sexual needs last.

I'm guessing we don't have data on the overlap between 'lesbians who are actively repulsed by male bodies' and 'lesbians who have sexual relationships with transwomen' though, so this is just conjecture.

Well, you can be same-sex oriented and still subject yourself to intimacy with the opposite sex for a variety of reasons, which can muddy these waters quite a bit.

And when I say 'expected' I mean the whole female socialisation wossname grooming us into putting our own sexual needs last.

Very much so.

It was a real eye opener listening to Riley Dennis and Rachel McKinnon as TW, informing lesbians that they could and should 'learn to cope with' sex with male bodied people as some form of social duty. The attitude towards female people this reveals is staggering.

Their main point: females finding a sexual experience unpleasant or unwanted must train themselves to co operate anyway for the sake of the male person. To act on or even consider their own feelings and needs is wrong.

This implies that females enjoying sex is very much secondary to their main purpose of meeting a male person's needs, if indeed female enjoyment of sex is relevant at all.

You will never find any mention at all of what the female is supposed to get out of the experience, or any hint of care or interest in the female's experience or feelings or needs to be met, or in fact any reciprocation or equal responsibility at all. The female is termed only ever as being a provider who must be careful not to be found failing.

The dehumanisation is quite frightening. #theservicehumansaremalfunctioning

Excellent post, Michelle

Bullying by TW seems endemic at the moment.

This implies that females enjoying sex is very much secondary to their main purpose of meeting a male person's needs, if indeed female enjoyment of sex is relevant at all.

You will never find any mention at all of what the female is supposed to get out of the experience, or any hint of care or interest in the female's experience or feelings or needs to be met, or in fact any reciprocation or equal responsibility at all. The female is termed only ever as being a provider who must be careful not to be found failing.

This reflects porn culture's influence exactly. And I'm not finding it surprising that men who identify as any thing are impacted by it because it's designed to appeal, primarily, to men.

Well, you can be same-sex oriented and still subject yourself to intimacy with the opposite sex for a variety of reasons, which can muddy these waters quite a bit.

That's putting it mildly!

I think a lot of the general conversation around sexuality (not here specifically) completely fails to take this into account. We're all assumed to be just the same as men except with different bodies, but the differing socialisation based on the body means men and women end up with very different experiences and expectations of the various labels and concepts.

RD and RM can bugger off with their "learn to cope" bollocks. I've been trying to do that since I was two years old; I'm now thirty five and I've had enough of it.

@anotherhumanfemale Agreed. And women have rarely been able to just own their own sexuality without coercion or even without mansplainin'.

I also believe that while women's sexual orientation should not be harassed, it should also not be anyone's business. No one should be interrogated over their theoretical adult sexual partners. Who you want to sleep with is deeply personal, private and not subject to anyone's opinions.

That's putting it mildly!

I have the curse of English understatement.

This is an interesting thread OP. I’ve heard some of the attitudes you mention.

To me this is the conflation of femaleness and femininity again.
It’s maybe less worrying about appearing ‘soiled’ and more about appearing right-on in their own social circles? Or, more charitably, about preserving their own self-image as inclusive and open-minded.
Lesbians admitting their own bisexuality in dating trans woman is clearly saying trans women are not really women, after all.

As an aside, I had a conversation with a friend who was surprised that as a bisexual woman, I would not continue to be attracted to my husband if he transitioned.
I said that I’m attracted to both male and female bodies, but that I am not sexually attracted to feminine presentation.
So it’s butch women and butch men, for me. I find some trans men attractive, but would want to avoid dating someone struggling with dysphoria, or who believed in an inner gender essence, in the same way that I wouldn’t date a very religious person.

No one should be interrogated over their theoretical adult sexual partners.

Very true, and yet we're subjected to it nonetheless. No wonder we've seen in an explosion in the variety of sexualities people are claiming; so many women are desperately seeking a label that says "Not interested in men being all male-socialised at me" that will be accepted and respected.

And that's a gift, not a curse, Floral

@Gwynfluff

political lesbians (straight and bi women – but predominantly bi women – who give up men and identify as lesbians for feminist reasons)

Would political lesbians being lesbians for feminist reasons only (do they exist in any significant number?) really be the ones wanting to broaden lesbianism to incorporate, I assume non-SRA, trans women? Or am I thinking too 1970s radical feminist lesbian separatist here? And you are thinking of younger women who come to it via the inclusive feminist route?

I do mean radical feminist political lesbians. I'm not saying that they want to include transwomen as lesbians (they certainly don't) although they do want to include straight and bisexual women as lesbians if they give up men. What I am saying is that they may well be some of the "lesbians" who the OP has heard making negative comments against bisexuals. There is a history of political lesbians having a negative view of bisexuals because political lesbians have very negative views of men, have given up on men and see being a lesbian as a man-free and non-male influenced existence (rather than a sexual orientation) so can see including bi women in lesbian spaces as polluting the space with women who are male-identified. In many cases both the political lesbian and the bi women have the same sexual orientation (bisexual), but they choose different behaviour (ie whether they act on their attraction to men).

Like the previous poster, I'm bisexual and generally find trans women too feminine for my taste. The lesbians I know who are or have been in relationships with trans women wouldn't call themselves bisexual because they are attracted to trans and cis women but not trans and cis men. They are lesbians in the same way that many women (straight or lesbian) will split up with a partner who comes out as trans, because they aren't attracted to their newly revealed gender.

Yes, lesbian separatism would fall there. I get it, and I'm honestly of the mind that as a lesbian who was coerced into a heterosexual life, I'm in a sticky spot making hard and fast judgements on the choices other women make.

I was certainly naturally sexually and romantically oriented towards my own sex. But a woman's boundaries are her own, and if a woman who did not naturally have those feelings all along decides she has a boundary which excludes men, I won't be condemning her or pulling any hierarchy bullshit.

The problems arise, as we've seen, when a woman's rights to say no to men are attacked. I really don't personally give a shit if another woman wants to have sex with a man. None of my business. What is my business is that as a lesbian, breaking her way of the closet again in her mid forties, if a bisexual woman claims to be a lesbian, my firm no to any man becomes a point of negotiation.

I think it's moot. Not really your business.

I'm bisexual, but am not attracted to trans people. Work that one out.

Never in all my many years as a lesbian have I heard bi women called contaminated, dirty or disgusting.

I have heard them called 'greedy' but it's said fairly affectionately.

The main issue I've noticed is lesbians worrying a bisexual woman would leave them for a man.

I've often heard it said 'bisexual men end up with men and bisexual women end up with men.'

If a bisexual woman wants children then it's simpler with a man.

I actually think bisexual women are being given a bit of a break at the moment, haven't heard any biphobia in ages IRL or online.

Never in all my many years as a lesbian have I heard bi women called contaminated, dirty or disgusting.

No, tbf, neither have I, at least not from anyone who was L or G. (Well, actually I did know a gay guy at uni who was fond of exaggeratedly calling anyone who was sexually active filthy, but that's not the same thing). Heard it plenty from varying shades of religious folk, but not lesbians.

I've heard quite a bit in recent months. Not directly to my fave, but in online forums women saying they wouldn't want to go down on a bisexual woman because they wouldn't want their mouth to go where a penis had been because tgat eould be disgusting and how they wouldn't trust a bisexual woman not to leave them for a man or cheat on them.

Interesting conversation.

I'm a GC bi woman. I don't think that lesbians who would date trans women are bisexual. They might have a definition of woman that I disagree with but as long as they keep it to their sex life and not try to erode my sex-based rights then its no business of mine who they are attracted to or why.

I guess I think of it as there are lots of reasons why I am attracted to a person - I like tall men, men with beards, those who can hold intelligent conversations, i like my women curvy, I'm particularly attracted to brunette women and whilst I'm not in the slightest attracted to trans women (uncanny valley freaks me out and entitled male behaviour is a total turn off), I have to say that in all honestly genitalia is pretty low down my lists of what makes a man or a woman attractive to me. So I do kinda get it, if you believe that TWAW and you were attracted to feminine attributes rather than what's in her pants, then sure why wouldn't somebody be a lesbian who dates trans women?

Also I image many lesbians who say they would, never actually have and would consciously or subconsciously find other reasons why they just aren't attracted to any given TW .

Also also (!) I imagine many women who think TWAW assume that they've all had or will have GRS.

Also I image many lesbians who say they would, never actually have and would consciously or subconsciously find other reasons why they just aren't attracted to any given TW .

I imagine this is the case too. Hence the 'cotton ceiling'.

I've heard lots of trans women say lesbians aren't interested in dating them.

OP, I've been out in lesbian social circles for 40 years and I've never heard any lesbian talk about bisexual women as contaminated, dirty or disgusting. So many women come out as lesbians later in life having been married and having children and I've never heard any lesbian I'm aware of criticise or question them for this, either.

There may be some rancour from an individual lesbian who has embarked on a relationship with another woman only to be dumped for a man. Feeling used and sexually experimented with can bring out the worst in anyone.

I really don't think that saying you've come across 'quite a lot of dislike' of bi women in the lesbian community and then saying 'obviously not all lesbians are like that' is helpful. 50% of lesbians aren't like that? 20%? 90%? It makes a massive difference. It feels like a slur to me.

I don't think your theory about lesbians and transwomen holds much water. Lesbians support and may even have relationships with transwomen for all sorts of reasons.

To be cool and gain virtue points and kudos with their peers: because they're vulnerable and are coerced into it: because they're rescuers: because they're the kind of woman who gets a kick out of breaking rules and boundaries: because they've been brainwashed by identity politics into believing that there's no such thing as sex: because they have internalised homophobia and so having a relationship with someone with a male body solves that problem. That's all I can think of for now.

I'm bi and not came across the attitude of "disgusting", "contaminated", "dirty" from lesbians. I know of many lesbians not interested in bi women, which is fair enough imo.

Most of the women I know of who date TW are either young or very into the whole queer community and 'TW are women'. I don't think it's about a shame of being bi.

Shed I will go back to where I most recently saw something written about bi women and list it later. It was on Facebook though so it means a lot of scrolling, which I can't do just now. You're not the only one who has never heard these things, just the most recent.

I'm very happy though that quite a few out lesbians haven't heard these things said. It's horrible to hear them about yourself and as I've just realised about 10 months ago that I've been attracted to women since early teens so new to the bi "label", it's not made me feel very comfortable. I mean nothing has changed about my sexuality and I'm in no struggle with it, but seeing words like that going unchallenged made me feel a shame that I also have sex with men. Not the biggest problem out there, granted, but just to explain that I'm genuinely happy hearing women surprised about these comments, because while they exist, they're unlikely to be too prevalent.

It was a real eye opener listening to Riley Dennis and Rachel McKinnon as TW, informing lesbians that they could and should 'learn to cope with' sex with male bodied people as some form of social duty.

Just a natural part of women’s natural duty to obey men. It’s good of RD and RM to make this clear, in case any of us had delusions of freedom or equal rights...