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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Discussion yesterday on TalkRadio between LGB Alliance and Benjamin Butterworth

68 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 18/09/2020 06:53

I didn't see a thread on this yesterday! Discussion on Ian Collins' show regarding the BMA.

Good to hear Beverley Jackson from LGB Alliance challenging Butterworth's use of suicide statistics.

OP posts:
Kazakaren · 18/09/2020 07:00

BB is an absolute muppet.

SunsetBeetch · 18/09/2020 07:14

Fabulous. Bev was excellent.

Dances · 18/09/2020 07:19

He is a smarmy wee scrud

zanahoria · 18/09/2020 07:34

He is the poundshop Owen Jones.

NotBadConsidering · 18/09/2020 07:37

Benjamin at 6.25:

Discussion yesterday on TalkRadio between LGB Alliance and Benjamin Butterworth
zanahoria · 18/09/2020 07:37

There are certain commentators that media shows love, not because they have anything sensible to say but merely because they provide entertainment, BB definitely in this category. Piers Morgan loves having BB on his show as it cranks up controversy and the the clown is a good punch bag.

BB is too dim to realise this and keeps showing up.

JaneAustenWouldHateThis · 18/09/2020 07:42

Why is it always gay blokes going on about this and not an actual trans person? (Little OJ, Doc Hadoc and now this Ben button chap)

They wouldn't get a white dude on to talk about BLM, would they?

What's the deal here?

zanahoria · 18/09/2020 07:46

They may be short of people willing to argue this, many are no debaters.

MindTheMinotaur · 18/09/2020 07:48

Bev was excellent, far more gravitas. Button has no idea how badly he comes across. DD is 9 and watched the GMB debate, without any prompting, or idea of the issues, she straightaway asked who he was and said she didn't like him.

Doesn't he also identify as black?

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 07:49

Why is this person - who, lets not forget took a place reserved for a black attendee at at conference on the basis that although white, his step mum is black - allowed the oxygen of publicity?

It then I suppose it shines a light...

MindTheMinotaur · 18/09/2020 07:50

That pantomime gasp as Bev said she didn't believe people could be born in the wrong body....

2Rebecca · 18/09/2020 07:51

Even BB admits sex matters when it comes to sexual relationships.

CaptainCarp · 18/09/2020 07:51

So Benjamin just admitted that he wouldnt date a transman because they aren't masculine? But if transmen are men surely that means they are masculine.

I wish Bev had called him out on the fact that that opinion (but in the opposite) is what she was talking about when she said lesbians had been called transphobic in dating sites.

SoManyActivities · 18/09/2020 07:59

When BB did that very dramatic 'I find that bigotry' I was willing Bev to do a 'That's Nice Dear'

Grin
zanahoria · 18/09/2020 08:03

The host should have picked up on the wrong body point, he should have asked BB exactly what he meant.

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 08:05

Wrong body - always hacks me off. So someone born blind or with a physical disability was born in the wrong body too? Does he believe in souls then?

testing987654321 · 18/09/2020 08:16

He's employed by a paper which started to promote independent thought?! How embarrassing for them.

PegasusReturns · 18/09/2020 08:17

I wish someone would pick up on the “living as a woman” point.

Ask what it means, because the only response is a list of crude stereotypes.

DonkeySkin · 18/09/2020 08:17

Bev made some great points about gay and lesbian rights and the importance of biological sex, but I thought Benjamin ultimately presented the stronger case on 'self ID'.

He did very well bringing everything back to the mental anguish of people who wish to be legally recognised as the opposite sex.

This framing is what has won the trans movement the right to falsify legal sex in the first place - long before 'self ID' was ever on the table. The argument goes: we desperately want to be the other sex, so much so that we will kill ourselves if society won't play along with this, and doctors agree this is a real thing.

It takes some chutzpah to argue that trans is not a mental illness, while at the same time using mental illness as the reason why trans demands must be met immediately and without question, but it has been a very successful strategy so far and will probably work to win 'self-ID' too.

It reaches people's most basic sympathies: most people think that it must be awful to feel like you were 'born in the wrong body', and thus when trans activists say 'these are the legal and social measures we need to alleviate that suffering', it seems reasonable to many people, especially when they haven't thought about the detail of how this will work in practice.

The problem for the 'gender critical' position is that the 'trans rights' framing means that they are essentially reduced to arguing for more red tape around a legal fiction that, we are told, is necessary because it is a medical emergency (suicide risk).

Benjamin: let people be legally recognised as a sex which they are not immediately, it's cruel to make them wait two years when they are in an emergency mental health situation.

Bev: it's important that people be legally recognised as a sex which they are not, but have a doctor sign off on it and make them wait two years first.

Nowhere in these arguments does anyone get to the nub of the issue, which is that no one should have the 'right' to be legally recognised as a sex which they are not. It is not a 'right', but an unreasonable demand. This demand is contra to reality, infringes on the rights of women in particular, and is ultimately socially unworkable on a large scale.

This is the case that needs to be made, strongly and unapologetically. If feminists keep framing it as 'trans rights vs women's rights', 'trans rights' will win every time, because trans-identified people are perceived to be the more vulnerable group, owing to their mental anguish and purported suicide risk.

zanahoria · 18/09/2020 08:19

Does he believe in souls then?

Does he believe in a God that puts souls into bodies but occasionally makes mistakes.

This is why the host should have picked it up, it is risible.

zanahoria · 18/09/2020 08:21

Does anyone else get the feeling that doctors just want nothing to do with this?

testing987654321 · 18/09/2020 08:26

Nowhere in these arguments does anyone get to the nub of the issue, which is that no one should have the 'right' to be legally recognised as a sex which they are not. It is not a 'right', but an unreasonable demand. This demand is contra to reality, infringes on the rights of women in particular, and is ultimately socially unworkable on a large scale.

Completely agree with this. Thanks for your critical response, I think BB came across really badly compared to Bev, but it's always good to question how others see it.

zanahoria · 18/09/2020 08:36

I agree too

Rights are not just something you make up as you go along.

Gay people fought for the right to marry and equal age of consent.

It was obvious that there was discrimination

When they got these rights it did not effect anyone else

This is not about rights but imposing an ideology

DonkeySkin · 18/09/2020 08:37

The reason the host didn't interrogate the 'born in the wrong body' stuff is because he, like almost everyone else, takes the phrase as a metaphor for feeling dissociation from one's sexed body.

It is a real phenomenon and there are many reasons a person might feel that way - this is particularly true WRT to the unprecedented numbers of girls and young women who are now presenting as being 'in the wrong body'. I don't see what good it would do getting into a metaphysical discussion about souls and bodies when the real discussion should be about the varied and complex psychological conditions that underlie 'gender dysphoria' in both sexes.

Trans activists are presenting 'gender dysphoria' as a straightforward biological phenomenon that is an ahistorical and natural part of the human condition. Nothing could be further from the truth. We need to somehow find a way to change the framing of the media discussion around this phenomenon, upon which children's bodies are being irrevocably altered and civil rights demands are being made:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

SunsetBeetch · 18/09/2020 08:39

Great posts DonkeySkin

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