Discussion yesterday on TalkRadio between LGB Alliance and Benjamin Butterworth

[EdgeOfACoin]

I didn't see a thread on this yesterday! Discussion on Ian Collins' show regarding the BMA.

Good to hear Beverley Jackson from LGB Alliance challenging Butterworth's use of suicide statistics.

Looks like Benjamin does understand biological sexed bodies and same sex attraction (he's attracted to 'male physicality' - presenter asked if he would date a trans man. Wonder if this will be picked up on twitter. He said it was on an 'individual level' and tried to say Bev was suggesting lesbians were being raped - when she had said no such thing at all and was completely measured and calm.

@SerenityNowwwww

Why is this person - who, lets not forget took a place reserved for a black attendee at at conference on the basis that although white, his step mum is black - allowed the oxygen of publicity?

It then I suppose it shines a light...

I think this is one of the unintended consequences of "no debate". If you refuse to send someone sensible and impressive along to argue your case, someone thirsty for media exposure, but silly and unimpressive, will step into the gap.

I wish someone had pointed out that trans people already have all the rights BB thinks they are being denied at present.

What he is really saying is he wants trans people to have the right to be included in a sex class that they will never biologically be part of, no matter what steps they take to transition.

Also think it’s interesting that BB said he was attracted to “male physicality”.

He was so clearly struggling to find a way to say he prefers biological males but couldn’t bring himself to say it otherwise the whole edifice would come crashing down.

@zanahoria

He is the poundshop Owen Jones.

I love this

Even BB admits sex matters when it comes to sexual relationships.

Yes. Curious isn’t it!

I took his comment about “how to say this in the middle of the afternoon [chuckle] I’m attracted to male physicalities” to mean he likes cock. It was the innuendo in his tone. He’s expressing a genital preference and same sex attraction, ergo by Stonewall definition (who define it as same gender attraction) and Twitter history, he is actually transphobic.

Disappointing, Ben.

Bev was brilliant- constantly distinguishing between biological sex and gender. This needs to happen over and over again until there is clarity.

In some ways I can understand the BMA trying to distance themselves from the gender recognition process... it was a binary vote they took and doesnt necessarily mean individual voters dont think bio sex is important- they probably want this gender nonsense off their hands. But because of the conflation of gender/sex in the general debate the implication is that the BMA think it's fine to keep medical records with gender only, not sex, for example. Which I'm sure they don't. So hopefully Bev's clarity and sunlight will force them into clarifying their own position. Which I really hope isnt 'biological sex doesnt matter'. It can't be, surely?

Bev was great but one thing I do notice is that the women often seem far more nervous than the men and I think this tends to detract from what they’re saying. BB is aggressive and interrupts, rude and unpleasant but it means his voice is heard. Piers Morgan matches him for aggression but I think that’s what is needed. There are such strong points here - sex is immutable, biological, observed at birth. It’s very very important in medicine. Gender - a set of beliefs, assumptions, social norms about how the sexes present, behave, speak. Culturally defined and changes over time. People can change their gender presentation as often as they want - it doesn’t change their sex. It’s arguable whether the government should have ANY role in certifying something so ephemeral. Present how you like, don’t be discriminated against for it, but when sex matters, it matters, and that never changes.

Well Ben has just outed himself as transphobic. By all the Stonewall definitions and activist YouTube rants genital preference (to 'male physicality' if you're prudish) Is transphobic.

So that's Benjamin Button, Adrian Haddock, and little OJ all agreed: women - have sex with who we tell you to, meanwhile we'll stick with what we like.

Weirdly, watching that, I saw Benjamin Button as Boris Johnson in a bad wig. Just me?

It’s interesting how Mr Button and his accolades are all for TMAM until it becomes personal......

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

It’s interesting how Mr Button and his accolades are all for TMAM until it becomes personal......

“ Inclusive in the Tweets, exclusive between the sheets “.

Inclusive in the Tweets, exclusive between the sheets

It did amuse me when George Galloway called him Benjamin Button yesterday on GMB. We do know that's not his name right? Just checking.

We do know that's not his name right? Just checking.

Meh. He does know that JKR hasn't made derogatory tweets about transgender people but isn't troubled by facts.

Doesn't he also identify as black?

Yes, for NUS LGBT conference.

twitter.com/JoLippers/status/1184089718939639809/photo/1

Absolute cracker

I the way, I was especially pleased when Beverley Jackson challenged the “50% suicide rate” assertion from Butterworth.

I’m becoming more aware how spurious some of these statistics are and was enlightened when she pointed out it was comprised of 27 self-selecting participants, and how irresponsible it was of him to repeat such unscientific findings as fact.

Mostly because of taking the time to read many of the links and studies posted on these boards—especially since most are from reliable sources—I have renewed m commitment to get facts. And that one wasn’t and it angered me.

What I would like to see, though, is the best data about transgender people. The respectable studies. The data. The actual rates of suicide, attempted suicide, transitioners, how fully transitioned, numbers of de-transitioners, data on medical implications, etc. Because TRAs don’t represent transgender people, that much I’ve concluded, but I want to read and absorb all sides.

Sick to death of the “most marginalised, most at risk, most harassed, abused victims EVER in history” rhetoric. It’s thrown around so often as fact yet feels like someone provided a template and everyone went whackadoo with it. It is always thrown out there and I’ve yet to see the facts to back it up.

To quote someone I don’t particularly admire, “Facts don’t care about your feelings.” I’m seeking as many facts as I can find.

Bev was great but one thing I do notice is that the women often seem far more nervous than the men and I think this tends to detract from what they’re saying. BB is aggressive and interrupts, rude and unpleasant but it means his voice is heard.

On purely presentation grounds Bev was loads better. Admittedly BB was passionate, but an experienced woman speaking calmly came across loads better. She knew what she was talking about and wasn't flustered. BB was ridiculous at times - his reaction when she said it wasn't possible to be born in the wrong body.

@CasuallyMasculine

Also think it’s interesting that BB said he was attracted to “male physicality”.

He was so clearly struggling to find a way to say he prefers biological males but couldn’t bring himself to say it otherwise the whole edifice would come crashing down.

I don’t think it’s the done thing to shout “I love cock!” on breakfast television.

Yet again I note that Button is allowed his personal boundaries wrt sexuality, but women on lesbian dating apps presented with lots of male bodied people should just be grateful they aren't getting raped.

DonkeySkin's posts, as ever, are white hot good.

Bev Jackson is absolutely excellent speaker. Clear, measured, calm and lucid.

It's almost a bit of a shame for wee Ben.

But not quite.

Why can nobody say the word 'lesbian'?

I don’t think it’s the done thing to shout “I love cock!” on breakfast television.

He could, however, have said “I’m only attracted to men’s bodies”, but of course this would be transphobic because he would be excluding trans men, as they have female bodies.